Is it MBD or Brumation and what can I do to fix it?

[berasmommy]

Hi, we've had a bearded dragon, Mikey, for almost 3 months now which we bought from a pet store. We did a lot of research before getting him and he was doing just fine until about a week and a half ago. He started acting really lethargic, his limbs don't move well and it looks painful when he moves and he always looks sleepy (think petrified). His appetite is still there and when given a bath he has regular bowl movements and seems to perk up a bit and moves all limbs. We took him to the vet who works with reptiles and they said they didn't know what it was yet. They confirmed that his jaw was not soft yet and gave him a calcium supplement in liquid form and a vitamin E drop to be administered orally. Here are the basics about our set up

How long have you now had the UVB light?
we have zoomed reptisun 10.0 T-5-ho in reflector house on a screen in a 2'x3' aquarium (the bulb is 3 months old). We have recently increased the heat by using two Zilla night heat incandescent 100watt heating bulbs so current basking areas sits between 105-110, previously ~100. We dropped his logs and climb down to ~10-12 inches, previously 8-10 inches, from the bulbs

Do use a calcium supplement?
we dust with a calcium supplement most of the time and supplement with calcium +vit D occasionally, both are zoo med brand

What symptoms of MBD are you seeing?
lethargic, stiff legs held at odd angles, sleepy

What temperatures do you have on the warm and cool sides of the cage?
warm side now sits 105-110 in basking area and decreases from there, cool side was closer to 70ish but now sits closer to 80 with the two bulbs.

Is he passing normal droppings?
droppings are all normal

What substrate do you use on the floor?
carpet

What are you feeding him?
dubia roaches which we dust before serving and are gut loaded with alfalfa and carrots prior to feeding Mikey, he loves black berries but is too lethargic to enjoy now, and we haven't really seen him eat a lot of the other greens or any other fruits even though we offer all sorts of stuff

Is there a chance that this could be brumation and not MBD? If it is MBD what can we do to help correct the situation?

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, how old is Mikey and what is his length + weight ? Pics will help, full body shots of him as well as pics showing his entire set up including bulb placement. Here's how to post pics :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them

Is there any way you can post a video of his movements ?

His care seems fine, although some of the Reptisun 10.0 t5's reportedly are not producing as high a level of uvb as supposed to. See if your bulbs have the gold colored prong ends, they may not be as strong as they should be.

 

[berasmommy]

The second pic is finisheing a shed which is when this all started. Also, I could not get the video to upload. Is there another way? He almost fell off his log trying to climb up it! He keeps moving to the cooler spot of his cage where it's 90ish degrees.

 

[berasmommy]

We've had him three months on 10/13 and we estimate that he was 5-6weeks when we got him. He's 1.4 oz and 10 inches long. He's grown from his two month (with us) checkup which was 1oz and 9 inches long.

 

[AHBD]

Poor sweet lil' dude, he does look a bit woebegone. His set up is beautiful, but you need to correct the high temps. ASAP. If it's 90 on the cool side he is getting too hot. Also, since he may have probably calcium deficiency you need to take out anything he can hide under. He needs to be exposed to good uvb for the majority of the day, and since he's sluggish the cave+ hammock should come out so it doesn't obstruct the uvb. Then attach his uvb fixture to the inside of the screen so it's closer to him + unobstructed by the screen. Here's how I have mine, attached with wire:

https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/30028/full

You can also opt for a very simple set up like this open plastic storage tote.
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29953/full

I raised beardies for over 20 years, they thrive in a simple set up when they're young. If it's warm out where you live and you could get him out in the sun [ in the grass or your lap, not in a glass tank ] that could help him . Offer extra hydration every day, dripping water on his snout . Since he can't climb well, lay his logs down flat ASAP as well.

Again, the goal is to get him more uvb exposure so he can absorb his calcium. And also, if the vet didn't tell you that this is definitely not brumation then the vet does not have much experience with beardies. Babies never, ever brumate. The lethargy is due to something else. I would not go back there. Just keep feeding him calcium dusted food, offer water via eyedropper or spray bottle for hydration, dripping on his snout once a day to give him a chance to drink.

 

[EllenD]

Yeah, definitely not brumation, he's far too young for that. Everything husbandry wise has been covered here, his temps are far too hot, his Cool Side Ambient needs to be at 80 degrees so he can cool down when he wants too, his Hot Side Ambient should be between 88-93, and his Basking Spot Surface temperature, which you can only measure if you have a digital probe thermometer or a temperature gun, which if you don't have already then you absolutely must spend $10 ASAP and buy a digital probe thermometer, should be between 105-110, with 110 being the max temp in his enclosure. Those cheap, stick-on thermometers are usually tested to be off by close to 20 degrees, so if you are using them and getting 90 degrees on the Cool Side, this may be a big part of his issue. Your enclosure isn't one that typically needs all the basking/heat bulbs to get to the correct temperature ranges, so I'm guessing that if you're using stick-on thermometers that he may be way too hot, which is dangerous. If you do have a digital probe or a gun then get his Cool Side down 10 degrees, and then measure the Hot Side Ambient and Basking Spot Surface again and adjust the height of the basking bulbs to adjust the temps. However, if you're using just stick-on thermometers, please go buy a digital probe thermometer and take all 3 temperatures with it immediately, starting with his basking spot surface. Place the probe directly where he sits on the basking spot and ALLOW THE PROBE TO SIT FOR 20-30 MINUTES BEFORE READING THE TEMPERATURE!!!! THEN MOVE IT TO THE HOT SIDE FLOOR/SIDE OF TANK AND ALLOW IT TO SIT FOR 20-30 MINUTES BEFORE READING IT, THEN MOVE TO COOL SIDE FLOOR OR SIDE OF TANK AND LET IT SIT FOR 20-30 MINUTES BEFORE READING.

The only other thing I have to add is to ask you if you notice and swelling in his legs or in his joint? Since it sounds like he's very stiff and sore when he moves, there is always a chance that he may have a bit of gout, which is becoming very common in babies unfortunately. If he has no swelling in his legs, feet, or joints, then concentrate on the calcium/UVB exposure, make sure his lights are on for at least 14 hours every single day, and just watch for swelling.

 

[berasmommy]

We have a digital thermometer and his ambient cool side is around 80, his ambient Hot side is around 90 and his basking is 105-110. However these temperature values were all lower until recently, as temperature was the first thing we suspected and corrected immediately. We have since taken out all other fluff from his cage and lowered his logs and climb to prevent falling. Our research has shown that with a Reptisun 10.0 T-5-high output that we should not need to mount under the screen (I still need to check on the prong color for user ABHD). I don't want to make too many changes to fast and stress him out. On the plus side he still has an appetite and normal bowl movements and dare I say he actually seemed stronger and more alert this morning. I have not noticed swelling in the joint but he does appear somewhat dehydrated so we've upped the baths to two a day. I also read some where that you can bathe them in 1/2 water and 1/2 pedilyte, has anyone tried it and is it recommended?

 

[berasmommy]

Also, let me clarify something. When I said "He keeps moving to the cooler spot of his cage where it's 90ish degrees." What I meant is that recently he prefers not to bask in the 105-110 spot but prefers to be in the cooler 90ish part of the hot side of cage. He always has a cooler side (75-80) to go to and there is a water bath. When placed in his basking area he would sit with his mouth open trying to cool himself off and since he doesn't move well we opted to leave him in the 90ish areas to make sure he doesn't over heat during the day. All that is moot now as we have lowered all the logs and removed everything to allow for more UVB exposure so I'm sure his baking area is a littler cooler now. Unfortunately it's a double edged sword because in order to get him warmer he has to climb which he can't do and would be dangerous to him. We are going to temp his spots later today and see where they are sitting. We may try and rig a heating bulb lower in the cage to get his temps up if they are too low.

 

[EllenD]

While he needs hydration, stop with the baths! Bearded dragons do not get any hydration at all from a bath through their vents or their skin. None at all, it's an old myth. They have to take fluids in through their mouths, so unless he drinks a bunch in the bath they are unnecessary and typically stress them out. And no, do not waste Pedialyte by pouring it in the bath water! Keep giving him fluids by mouth, either by dripping it on his snout or however you have gotten that to work for him, but unless he's dirty he doesn't need a bath, once a week is plenty.

 

[berasmommy]

For those of you following this post I have an update on our beradie, Mikey, but it is not a good one
We took him to an actual herp vet in our area and the vet confirmed it was not MBD but suspects Agamid Adenovirus instead. He was given a Vitamin B boost but has shown no signs of neurological improvement. He was also placed on a low dose antibiotic as the vet suspects the coccidia parasite, although this is just precautionary pending a fecal test. Either way the prognosis is not good as there is no known cure for this virus and usually results in death in baby beardies. To everyone out there, please watch your beardies as the virus is easily spread especially in sibling broods and breading facilities and can lay dormant until another bacterial infection is present. Currently Mikey is hanging on and still has an appetite although he can't move around his cage much. We are giving him all the love and TLC we can but prevention is the best method to defeat this terrible virus.

 

[AHBD]

Sorry to hear that Mikey is still not well. Did the vet take a swab to test for ADV ? If not ,I would urge your vet to do the test....it is nothing to really guess at unless you have the test done. One of the mods. here, Drache613 works with an organization that studies ADV and can do the test for about $20 I believe. She's an expert on it and can help you if that's the problem. And trwating for coccidia without an actual diagnosis is not really always a good idea. Hopefully the meds. won't take away his appetite.

It is good that he's eating though, I hope you contact Tracie [ Drache ] ASAP and get the ADV test done + hopefully Mikey does not have it.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I sent you a PM with regards to Adeno testing. It is very easy to do, at home & is only $19 per
test sample.
How close is the T5 tube to him? Maybe you could mount it underneath of the screen perhaps,
just to be sure he is getting adequate UVB. As mentioned, some earlier models of these tubes
had lower emissions than what was expected for the type of lamp.
How much liquid calcium is he getting daily, do you know the strength of the solution?
I am glad though, that he doesn't have coccidia, that is very good news right now!

Let us know how Mikey is doing.
Tracie

 

[berasmommy]

Sadly our baby passed away two nights ago. We are currently grieving his loss and recuperating. We plan to sanitize everything at a later date and go over all our husbandry and make any changes we feel necessary. We will try again but our little baby will always have a special place in our hearts.

 

[AHBD]

Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear about Mikey. That's so sad, I know your heart is aching right now. All my condolences to your family.