Introduction/Eating Problem?

[Sassy123]

I finally got my baby beardie, Mushu!!

He loves posing for the camera...
There is one thing I wanted to have all of your opinions on. He won't really eat. Now I already know that my temp in the basking spot is wrong, only at 90ish degrees. I already have ordered a new lamp/bulb and they will be here soon. He ate once the day after I got him in the late morning (I didn't really see him eat. I tried to get him to eat with me there, but finally I just left him the phoenix worms in a bowl and when I came back later he had eaten them all and was pancaking on his branch). After he ate, he didn't go to the bathroom at all! Finally, the next day, I gave him a bath to help his digestion, and after the bath he finally went. I was a little concerned about how it looked, it was watery... You could see the solid white pee, but the actual poop was watery. Yesterday he peed again but with a watery "substance".... he hasn't eaten since the first time. He seems TOTALLY uninterested in his food. But he is skinny!

After I have the new temps should he be better? Or is there another issue?

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Can you post a picture of the entire setup? He looks somewhat starved, poor thing. Hopefully once the new heat bulb comes it could increase his appetite a little bit.

Also a few questions so i know exactly everything hes getting or was.
Is the tank bioactive?
What or what have you tried feeding him?
How much have you tried feeding him?
What uvb brand does he have, reptisun, arcaida etc.
Is the uvb coil, compact, mvb, or a tube light?
What supplements are you using?
What sized tank do you have?
Do you use a nighttime heat source?

 

[Sassy123]

Yes the tan is bioactive, and he actually seems to love it. I've been trying to feed him phoenix worms, and only about 10-15 at a time. His uvb bulb is a reptisun, and it is a tube. I have a reptile vitamin supplement that goes on his bugs/veggies, and also a calcium/Vitd3 powder that I use only about 2 a week. He is in a 40 gallon tank, which he loves looking around in and hiding in the leaves. Here is is tank setup

Also, would hornworms, (appropriately sized ones of course), help enticing him to eat? I planned on getting some eventually, but if they would help him eat I could get them now...

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Hornworms would be great, but just dont feed too much. Maybe try some dubia roaches and see if he'll eat that. I sometimes have to cut into the bugs and let some of my reptiles lick it before they actually eat it. It takes a while but it works.. somewhat. Usually calcium goes on the food 5 times a week and multivitmins go on twice a week, but i may not have understood what you said correctly.

In my opinion i'd get him a 20 gallon with some paper towels and hides until hes better, basically like a sick tank you could say. And then once hes a good weight and all healthy then put him back. Usually beardies are completely fine in large setups but if they are underweight like him or sick then its better to have a somewhat smaller tank that still works, but moving tanks could also stress him out so im not entirely sure which would be best right now.

 

[Sassy123]

He seems to enjoy the large tank, and I don’t have the money to get another tank with extra stuff... I will definitely try the hornworms. Although this afternoon he did eat some worms from my hand ? And I’ll switch the calcium/multivitamin dustings. I read that you were supposed to dust bugs with multivitamin the exact opposite of what you said. But I’m way more willing to believe a person who owns a dragon rather then any internet site, I’ve heard so much false info on the internet that it’s sad.

 

[PodunkKhaleesi]

A note on hornworms: they grow incredibly quickly and for a dragon that tiny you would need to buy the smallest size possible and feed them off before they quadruple in size and become a choking hazard. But even the smaller hornworms can be pretty big compared to such a young beardie. If I had a baby that tiny I’d hold off on feeding him hornworms until he was a safer size.

 

[Drache613]

Moved by Moderator from General to Health

 

[Sassy123]

Yeah I was also concerned about the size of the hornworms. I planned on buying hornworm eggs and hatching them, and feeding the tiny ones to my beardie, and the bigger ones (as they grow) to my adult leopard gecko. But before I buy any other bugs, I’m waiting for the new lamp/bulb to come (should be today or tomorrow) and see how he does. Yesterday he did better with eating and going to the bathroom. He also seemed way more perky and interested. He even ate 4 bugs from my hand and another two while I wasn’t in the room (from a bowl)

 

[EllenD]

Can I make a very important suggestion to you regarding the bioactive tank? I'll be up front and tell you that I'm totally against them for bearded dragons specifically, not all reptiles or amphibians, but certainly for desert ones because they are NOTHING like their natural habitat, which is only the Australian desert, because it is a very hard, rocky terrain with sparse vegetation. So keeping them in a bioactive tank is in my opinion very unnatural and actually very unhealthy as well, because bearded dragons are very prone to parasitic infections and bacterial/fungal infections (their natural habitats are much more "sterile" and you're introducing many microbes to his system that he isn't equipped to naturally fight")...That being said, that isn't my beef right now...

I have encountered this 2 times prior on this very forum, you can search the actual threads I'm talking about by just searching for "bioactive" in the search bar so you can verify what I'm saying. Both of these times the OP was posting because they had gotten their new baby bearded dragons within the past month, they were very young, at the most a month old, just like your little guy, and the reason for both posts by the OP's was that their babies refused to eat after the first week or so of having them, and they were getting dangerously thin, just as your baby is. And in both situations the OP's had put their new, tiny, young baby beardies into a large, cluttered, bioactive tank exactly like yours. And we as long-time members had to fight them about emptying the bioactive tanks out, completely disinfecting the tanks with very hot water and bleach or F10 disinfectant (along with everything else inside the tank that was going to be put back into the freshly cleaned tank), having them put down clean, dry paper towels as the substrate so that they could be simply thrown out and replaced as they became soiled, and then setting up the tank as a standard baby bearded dragon habitat with a Hot Side, Cool Side, a dedicated, main Basking Spot/Platform that was within the Hot Side and directly under both the bright white basking bulb and an adequate and unobstructed 10.0 UVB tube (must be mounted UNDER the mesh lid, as they block 40% of the UVB light, and if using an 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVb tube it cannot be obstructed by anything and must be within 6" at the farthest from that main Basking Spot), and having them recheck all 3 temperature zones with a Digital Probe Thermometer or a Temp Gun...

Now both of these cases were duplicate to yours in every way, and in both cases we finally did convince these 2 new members to ditch the bioactive tank, at least in a TEMPORARY manner, and in both cases their husbandry was actually okay as far as lighting and temps, it was just the extremely cluttered, overcrowded, and most importantly overwhelming bioactive tanks that were causing their young, new baby dragons to stress out completely and not eat, and in both cases their babies started eating the very next day. To the best of my knowledge at least one of these OP's did switch back to a bioactive tank, their decision, but not until their dragon was at least a year old. And I really believe that this is your issue 100%, your baby is in an extremely unnatural environment than what he is used to being in from his first month of life, but more impactfully from what he is innately meant to be in. Your Bioactive tank is too cluttered with junk and too overwhelming. Bearded Dragons like to hunt their live bugs, especially young babies and juveniles, even if that means nabbing a BSFL from off of the floor. But the bioactive tank presents numerous problems that a very young baby dragon just cannot handle, and this has been proven time and time again.

Your baby is extremely thin and doesn't look good, and my best and urgent advice is not to go out and buy a smaller tank, I have never seen tank size effect anything with a new baby, I have kept 3 month old babies in 40 gallon breeder tanks with excellent husbandry with zero issues. After all, think about their natural environment: dragons are solitary animals, and babies hatch and live alone from that point on, they don't stay together. They are alone in a vast Australian desert, so the tank size has nothing to do with it (assuming that your 3 temperature zones are within the correct ranges, your UVb tube is adequate, unobstructed, and within the correct distance of his main Basking Spot/Platform), but the Bioactive tank you have him in is not in any way natural to him or his species, and he's pretty new to begin with, and he has moved from a breeder to a pet shop, and now to you, so 3 moves, and now he's inside that bioactive environment that is just too much for him to take. He's completely overwhelmed and stressed, and he is not going to start eating on his own until he again feels comfortable and at home in an environment that is natural to him. And he cannot afford to lose any more weight at all, he's becoming emaciated and his eyes are starting to look sleepy and sunken as well. Remember that they also get most all of their hydration from their live insects during their first year of life...

So my best advice to you is to immediately ditch the bioactive tank, dump it all out, completely disinfect the tank you have and the decor/bowls that will go back in it, then put down paper towels as a plain, simple substrate that will make his live worms and other live insects show up vividly to him, get his 3 temperature zones within the correct ranges and his UVB tube mounted unobstructed and within the proper distance from his UVB tube, and then be sure to keep both his UVB tube and his bright white basking bulb on each day for at least 13-14 hours. Put him back in his newly disinfected and uncluttered tank and allow him to acclimate a bit and warm up, and then throw 2-3 BSFL or whatever live insects you're feeding him on the paper towels, and I'm willing to bet that within 24 hours of being allowed to adjust in his new and more familiar environment that he will start eating like a little garbage disposal. But you need to do this quickly, as he needs to start eating a large amount of live protein every day pretty directly before he starts to become very sick and going downhill...you can always go back to a bioactive tank when he's an acclimated adult if you choose to, I don't suggest it and I don't condone it or endorse it, but that's your choice and I respect that totally, but right now it's obviously not working and you're going to run out of time to find out if I'm correct or not, and that's why I suggested that you search for the other very similar, almost duplicate posts to this one...

 

[Sassy123]

Since I’ve had him, he has gotten much better with the eating his food, and he has put on some weight. When I took the picture it was literally hours after I’d had him. Now he looks much better. He perked up significantly after just 2 days of having him. I will definitely monitor his behavior, but at the moment I can’t switch his enviornoment.

 

[PodunkKhaleesi]

I know your post wasn’t in reference to the bio active tank but I completely agree with Ellen. I know it’s a touchy subject because people put a lot of time and effort into them, but ultimately they just aren’t sanitary. A lot of people will post health queries on these forums—usually a dragon that has gotten very sick and requires an urgent vet visit. And the common denominator, after members ask questions about the husbandry, winds up being a bio active tank. They’re essentially bacteria sponges. And even if the porous nature of the materials didn’t cause bacteria to run rampant, they’re not natural for these desert-dwelling reptiles. Ditching the bio active setup is actually to your benefit as well because it’s so much easier to maintain a viv with a solid, easily removable substrate (like paper towels). And you don’t have to worry about feeder insects scurrying into the thousands of nooks and crannies in a bioactive tank and then crawling out at night to nibble on your lizard’s eyes or vent (I know that sounds horrifying but it can and does happen). Forgoing a bioactive tank really will ultimately lead to both a happy lizard and happy owner.

 

[Sassy123]

I understand your concerns, but also, I did spend ages researching bioactivity and bearded dragons. I looked here on this forum, other forums, and tons of other websites on the subject, and most (about 90%) all agree that it is fine for bearded dragons. The sanitary issue has more to do with improper set up of the tank and materials rather then the actual bacteria in it. A bioactive tank replicates the real world they live in. In the real world, beardies live with millions of harmful bad bacteria organisms, and survive. Its because its their natural habitat. I don't see how a environment that claims to be "sterile" is natural in comparison. The real world isn't "sterile". I agree to disagree on this subject, and of course, if Mushu continues to have problems, then I'll start seeing about changes. But so far, he has been improving. I think his condition had more to do with Petsmarts previous care. I posted this the day after I got him, which was hardly long enough for him to have a chance to settle down. He has filled in since I've had him, which has only been since Friday night. I do respect all of your opinions, I really do. I would just rather wait before doing something as drastic as changing his tank setup, especially when he's improving.
P.S. PLEASE NO ONE BE OFFENDED. I really don't mean to come off as pushy or arrogant! I really do appreciate your concern...

 

[Sassy123]

This is Mushu this morning before eating anything, and after just 4 days of having him:

I hate walking in chain pet stores and seeing them super skinny (like when I got him). It makes me want to buy all of them...

 

[AHBD]

He's looking great, very much improved ! And BTW, I don't have any of my beardies in a bioactive set up but I had a fireskink in the past who lived for over 10 years [ I didn't know his age, got him as an adult ] in a bioactive and now have another one in a bioactive tank. These skinks spend a lot of time actually under the substrate but are not harmed one bit by it.

But I could see someone not setting it up properly + having real problems. I have only seen 1-2 on this forum and they both have healthy dragons. I've not seen any at all on this forum that have sick dragons related to a bioactive set up. Maybe on another forum ?

Even so, it would be good to keep a sharp eye out for any sign of harassment of a small dragon by any insects.

 

[PodunkKhaleesi]

He looks a lot healthier in those photos. I have a really hard time walking past the live reptiles at Petco and Petsmart. The last time I was at Petco one of the employees was removing three dead baby bearded dragons that had been fed adult (aka way too big for their tiny 2-month old bodies) crickets, and because I’ve yet to see a Petco follow their own reptile care sheets, the baby dragons choked to death on enormous crickets that had no business being fed to lizards that tiny. I remember begging the manager to make sure all new employees knew that insects larger than the space between a beardie’s eyes were a choking hazard. He shrugged and said, “We usually feed the babies pretty big Mealworms and most seem to do okay with them.” As he was explaining to me that a lot of Petco baby dragons “just die because of Darwinism and that’s how it goes” my boyfriend quickly guided me out of the store before I could have a full blown meltdown. My boyfriend helped me draft a detailed email to corporate (I’d noticed many other disturbing husbandry issues during this trip, including improper temperatures, severe overcrowding, one cage without any UV light whatsoever, etc.) but no one at the company responded and given that this was not the first Petco I’d seen ignore a bearded dragon’s bare minimum health requirements, I doubt that it motivated any positive change. It would be great if every bearded dragon lover that went into a chain pet store and saw mistreatment or poor husbandry took photos and posted them alongside a detailed Yelp review. I’d like to believe that if this happened on a large scale the company would be forced to make a change before their reputation became irreparably destroyed. I could rant for hours about the things I’ve witnessed at Petco, but the important thing is that you’ve managed to get your little guy on the right track and he’s filling out nicely. Regarding the bioactive tank, for some species the risks are more minimal than for others. For example, my reptile vet, who raises and specializes in treating bearded dragons, has noticed an uptick in the amount of respiratory infections in his beardie patients. Many of these can be traced to the husbandry, aka a bioactive tank. Many people don’t realize that certain designs can increase the humidity to a level that can, over time, lead to a respiratory infection that’s very difficult to treat. Additionally, if not meticulously managed, bioactive tanks can be a breeding ground for mold and bacteria, which can also lead to respiratory infections. Bioactive tanks can be a draw and breeding ground for some undesirable insect visitors, and when it comes to feeding a bearded dragon in a bioactive tank, allowing insects like crickets, which have been known to do real damage to a sleeping bearded dragon, reside in this ecosystem with the lizard can be dangerous. In another post someone wanted to know if superworms and crickets bite, as they were planning to have them constantly available in their bioactive tank. So I mentioned a vet visit in which I met an incredibly distraught girl with her bearded dragon in the waiting room. Her bioactive tank had allowed some feeder insects to easily hide, then crawl out of their hiding spots at night and chew on her dragon. The dragon appeared to have lost an eye because of this (it was hard to tell because the poor thing’s face was such a mess, but the eye in particular looked pretty destroyed). Is it impossible to raise a healthy bearded dragon in a bioactive tank? No. If someone is willing to put in the extra time and effort to minimize the risks, then it’s possible for the setup to work. People that want to take the time to create an elaborate and unique ecosystem for their beardie do so lovingly, and I’ll always respect that motive. It’s a personal choice, but for me I just think the cons outweigh the pros. I think tropical species are a bit more suited to the concept than desert-dwelling dragons, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t circumstances in which it can work. Bioactive tanks are just one of those topics that beardie owners are forever in disagreement on (see also: the great mealworm debate). You clearly love Mushu and if he already trusts you enough to eat from your hand then that’s great. Small dubia roaches and BSFL are particularly good feeders for lizards your age (and bonus: BSFL are really easy to handfeed).