Im new here and im worried.

[Mojorisin3381]

Hi,
We have 2 small beardies, they are about 3 months old and we bought them when they were about 3 weeks old. The one we are having a problem with came from an uncle bills pet shop and we have pretty much had trouble with her from the start.

They have good light, good food, dusted crickets gut loaded and even though they are young they are partaking in some greens already. I also take them outside so they get natural sunlight. They lay on my chest and get probably 5 hours of natural a week.
However, my baby girl, continuously shows signs of MBD. Im writing to find out if it could possibly be something else because I cant see how she could have a deficiency when we take such good care of her. BTW our other beardie is fat and healthy.
Her limbs, front and back will shake, her tail, her whole body trembles. She has had one seizure.
In addition to the seizure, if she lifts a leg or arm in an odd position it will lock up like shes having a charlie horse and shake. It last for about 10 seconds and then it will subside. Or her leg will .. hard to explain, but move in a way like shes scratching with her hind leg but she has no control over it and it is very fast.
Now heres the kicker, this only happens when its time for her to shed.
The rest of the time she seems to be healthy as a horse.

Plz help, shes shedding now and the trembling is horrible. Im heartbroken at the sight of her discomfort : (

 

[Loganator]

Bump

Her symptoms would certainly make you think MBD. But I don't feel I am experienced enough to help much. I am a fairly new beardie owner as well (about a year now) and practically live on this site. LOL. Thanks to all the stuff I have learned here my beardie has been very happy and healthy. Maybe a more knowledgeable person will chime in to help.

My first questions though would be: What type of UV bulb do you have? How old is the bulb ? How close can she get to it?

UVB is essential to their absortion of calcium. Lack of UVB and calcium is the primary cause of MBD, as I understand.

I know you said you take them outside for natural sunlight 5 hours a week, but I am hoping you supplement that with a good source of UV in their tank.

 

[Mojorisin3381]

Thx for your reply.

We ahve been to several stores and have not seen a basking light with uvb, they all say UVA.. is that the same? Or do I just totally have the wrong bulb? It is less than a month old, we changed cages a few weeks back and thats when we got it. She can get from 8 inches up to 4 ft away from that bulb.

Here is a pic of the current bulbs we have, we are currently using the one on the left. The other was an extra just in case the 150 was too hot.

This is their enclosure

If we are wrong on the bulbs can people please post a link to an acceptable lightbulb?

Like I said, this activity seems to happen when she sheds. She is pretty lathargic at the moment and irrated since she doesnt rly have the energy to remove the rest of her shedding skin. The shaking seems to have gotten worse, im very worried.

IDK, she was fine 2 days ago.. weird.

 

[Rachella]

Aww, that poor baby! I feel bad for her just -reading- about it! D:

UVA isn't the same as UVB. You need a UVB bulb in there. I highly suggest getting one as soon as possible. The fact they're getting natural sunlight a day is very very good and since they haven't been under a UVB bulb everyday it's extremely fortunate you've been getting them under the sun.

I'd recommend the Reptisun 10.0. You can get it here online : http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html

With the Reptisun they'll need to be able to get up to six inches away from it, and you'll want to keep a seperate heat source since it won't give out any heat.

That's got what you need for your beardies and is the most highly recommended with the exception of a MVB, which is a lot better but costs more about 46 bucks just for the light, although it does put out it's own heat as well. http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-sb-100-watt-self-ballasted-flood-uvb-lamp.php is a link to it if you wanna look into it.

Other than that I can offer no real help or solution, though hopefully a mod will see this and provide some more experienced information as to helping her with her seizures.

P.S. That is a gorgeous enclosure!

 

[Mojorisin3381]

Wow, so the bulbs that I have do not benefit them at all with the exception of heat? I feel horrible if thats the case. So, can I reverse the damage that has been done or have I screwed my babies over? Lois is the only one with problems. Stewie is in with her and shows no signs of any illness let alone MBD. Does it effect dragons differently?
What does the UVA do then?

And thx for the compliment on the enclosure, thats only half of it, the other half has a rock pool and one of those big half log looking things.
We built it for them a few weeks ago and they have just had a blast till all this happend

 

[Calvin546]

You should take out the sand too. They may lick it up and get impaction. You should get reptile carpet, tile, newpaper or papertowel. No loose substrates.

 

[Mojorisin3381]

You should take out the sand too. They may lick it up and get impaction. You should get reptile carpet, tile, newpaper or papertowel. No loose substrates.

Thx for the suggestion.
We kept them on reptile carpet untill we moved them to this new cage. So i guess that wouldve made them a lil over 2 months old and well over 6 inches in length.
We do not feed them in their habitat. They are fed in a 20 gallon tank with reptile carpet atm, I find it keeps their home cleaner. Id venture to say that most cases of impaction due to sand are from people who feed them in the enclosue, where they can scoop up mouthfuls while catching their crickets. But, thats just my opinion

This was taken 2 days ago, she seemed fine then.

and ofc her fatty roommate, so he doesnt get jealous

 

[peera]

You would be right about feeding in the enclosure being the primary cause of impaction, but impaction is not the only danger of loose substrate. It is virtually impossible to get properly cleaned after they poop since their is some level of moisture in a healthy dragon's feces, and as I'm sure you know, dragons, like all reptiles, carry salmonella in their intestines, so that and whatever other parasites they might have flourish in loose substrate, putting both you and them at risk to get sick. Also, I was reading in my baby book recently, and it warned me not to let my son play in store-bought playsand because it's been known to have asbestos in it. seems to me it's not wise to take the risk of making dragons live in it when there are so many safer, healthier options.

 

[Mojorisin3381]

Thx Peera, this def makes more sense to me than the impaction. I mean Australia is covered in sand and im sure all beardies didnt go around eating it all and that would be their natural habitat.
I would consider changing it for the reasons you listed... even though i just spent like... 48 hours baking every tray of sand that went in there lol. meh, i will have the hubby do it

I want the best for them ofc. I cant believe how attatched ive become already, im just hoping all is good til the new light comes. I will make sure I take her outside as much as I can until it comes.

Tell me if this is weird... like 30 minutes ago.. she shed her torso, which im sure was really bothering her. Within 10 minutes of this her trembeling has diminished quite a bit.
So I guess my Q is, do these things get worse when she is annoyed and uncomfortable?

 

[peera]

It's a common misconception that dragons live on sand (I think americans hear desert and think "sand" for some reason), they actually live on clay hardpan. We used to have an australian member who would post pictures of his hardpan backyard, but I haven't seem him around recently. But impaction is probably the second cause of death for wild dragons, predators being first. And of course, the life expectancy of a wild dragon is about half that of a pampered pet. I am sorry about all that work, I did the same thing when I got my first. Look out, they're addicting! In about 3 months I'm going to *fingers crossed* have 20 hatchlings taking up every spare minute, and I'm looking forward to it!
Oh, and yes, the discomfort of shedding can make all other annoyances bother them 10x.

 

[Mojorisin3381]

Wow, thx so much for everyones help. I will be changing the sand. However she is still sick. Does it make sense that Stewie isnt showing any signs while lois seems to be so very sick?

 

[sara24354]

It may not have affected your other dragon yet. Some dragons hide the fact that there are problems until it is too late Not that there is anything wrong,just a fact. Here is a link to some pictures of where veardies come from in Austrailia. http://www.freewebs.com/kirbydragons I found these pictures very interesting.

 

[diamc]

Hi there, welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear that one of your beardies isn't doing well. Sometimes one is more susceptible than another. There seems to be quite a difference in their sizes even though they are close to the same age and that is concerning. Is there any way that you can partition off one side of the tank to see if that makes a difference and helps increase his appetite?

The twitching and "locking up" that you explained sounds like just what I experienced years ago with our smallest beardie and it is not something I can forget. He would twitch in his back legs and then they would lock up and get wrapped around his tail. We used to massage his legs and also give frequent baths and encourage him to move all his limbs in the water. That did make a difference. What you're experiencing is the beginning symptoms of metabolic bone disease. Our beardie had no UVB while in the pet store and after 2 days of having the Repti-Sun 10.0 fluorescent strip, the symptoms totally disappeared and we were shocked. We still continued with the massages to help him build up his muscles. He is still a small beardie for almost 5 yrs old but looks very healthy.

I noticed that you're dusting his feeders. Are you using calcium with D3 but phosphorus-free? How often do you use the calcium? Are you also using vitamins, if so, how often? Without a UVB light, it doesn't allow them to process the calcium efficiently so some of the symptoms could be from that. I also have to say that Gizmo's twitching & spasms did seem worse when he was shedding his legs so that isn't your imagination. Did you order the Repti-Sun bulb?

I also think removing the sand would be a good idea. Even though they aren't fed in their tank, babies lick a lot so impaction is always a risk from it.

What are the tank temps and what type of thermometer are you using to check them?

Hopefully once he gets the bulb and it is 6 to 8 inches from him, it will make a difference. Please answer the questions so we can rule other things out too.

 

[Mojorisin3381]

wow, ty , let me see if i can give you all your answeres.

Ok, yes we can partition the tank. I thought that might be an issue. When we first got Stewie.. aka the bigger one... Lois was very dominant. She constantly bobbed her head at him and would run and jump on his back. She would race and eat crickets as fast as she could while making sure he wasnt touching them untill she was done. After about A week, that changed and stewie kind of took over while Lois became the submissive one. So I started to feed her seperately. She eats really well. She eats about 45 small crickets a day and she enjoys greens, mainly bok choy is her fav.But she doesnt go nuts on them yet, greens are kind of new.

Stewie on the other hand just eats soooo much. He will eat 20 to 30 crickets per setting AND he will eat greens everytime they are offered. I think thats why there is such a size diff, I dont think Lois is small for her age, I think Stewie is big for his, but than again, idk, thats why im here. I will def try and see if she will eat even more.

Yes, we have ordered a light and will get it on them as soon as possible.
So can you get rid of the disease or is it something they just live with? I understand that it can kill them and/or decrease their lifespan quite a bit. But if I fix things ASAP and take care of her well, will she be ok ?

As for calcium... it doesnt say anything about d3 but does say that its phosphorus free. We dont currently give any other vitamins.. suggestion?

Tank temps....I use a Lumiscope touchless. The highest point they can reach registers 115 and their normal lazy spots are90 to 105. We have offered them several elevations to the light to help them be more comfortable. The enclosure is over 4 ft long so they can completely get away from the heat lamp if they feel the need to do so.

Let me know if I missed anything.

From the description you gave... sounds like you have hit the nail on the head. And it is heartbreaking, I dont think ive cried this many times
in a day.. for a very long time lol. It def gives me hope to hear that you have gone through it and you baby is still loving life.
I really thought I researched everything properly and that i wasnt going to be one of those people who hurt thier babies by being dumb ;/
I do know that as much as I care for them im def willing to learn and make things right.
Thx to everyone, this community seems great and thx for the welcome.

 

[sara24354]

We are a lot like one big family here,trying to help those we can,laughing and rejoicing over new babie or big accomplishments,crying over illnesses or deaths. Welcome aboard.
Hugs,

sara