I'm at a loss...Adult dragon issues

[Mustashio]

I'm not sure what to do. And this is a long post, so fair warning!

Tashi is 2yo and long story short, has not eaten any vegi's or salad (willingly at least) in over a year. Live feeders he has slowly dwindled away options. Liked crickets, then only supers, hornworms, butters and silks. Then only supers and hornworms. A month later only hornworms. And now he won't eat ANY live feeders and he refuses to hunt anything. This dwindling has been going on since about a year ago and now he's down to nothing that he will eat on his own.

Had a fecal and checkup back in October and he was at that time, 571g and fecal was negative for parasites, but I brought up the feeding issues and vet said to give syringe feedings of green baby foods mixed with his calcium/vitamin schedule about 3x a week. At that time he was eating hornworms so no big deal. Plus he was also starting to enter brumation at end of October. He never really completely brumates but he did what he did last year and just slowed down a bit.

I was syringe feeding him through his brumation which I learned after the fact was a big no no. Ooops! But now he will not hunt ANYTHING, and I'm worried he has gotten too used to the syringe. Besides the fact that that is the only way I get calcium and vitamins into him! He doesn't appear to be starving by any means, and others have said he is a "big guy" for his age. Vet didn't seem concerned back in October when he weighed 571g, but I weighed him today and he was down to 520g. Is this concerning?

Now however he is out of brumation and will not eat anything (unless it is syringe fed to him, which I have been doing just so that he can get his calcium and vitamins in him!) He gets baths nearly every day and does drink in the bath and will poop in bath too. Poop and urates have been very runny and not very big, and urates have been crumbly and grainy looking, although he always poops/urates in the bath so I can't really tell if they are hard. I'd guess that they aren't though because it isn't even solid enough for me to fish it out of the water whole!

I can give specifics on husbandry if you want, but basically fresh Reptisun 10 tube replaced in January (and I'm anal about changing it every 6months), temps with probe are 100-105 basking, 81 cool side. Only thing different is humidity is very low at 16%, which I attribute to a very cold winter (Minnesota) and having to adjust the dimmer on his heat light to compensate. But he does get near daily baths and drinks and no wrinkly skin, so I don't think he is dehydrated. Here is his viv.



Here is a recent pic of him.



He also lately loves to lay where he can let his belly hang (LOL) which really makes him look overly huge! Either that or he'll stand up on his hind legs in what I call his yoga pose.





Another thing that crossed my mind was that maybe he cannot see anything! He loves to have his belly and mouth and top of head rubbed and will often close his eyes, but then opens them fine. However I can put a worm well within his field of vision, or even dangle it over him and he doesn't even look at it! How do you check a beardies vision anyway? Just a thought.

Between the runny and grainy poop/urates, the not eating anything unless syringe fed, and the weight loss, I'm not sure what to do. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm at a total loss. Tashi and I would appreciate any suggestions you might have!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is a challenging situation.
Since his fecal was negative, then it shouldn't be that.
Are you feeding him baby food now? That is a little bit of weight loss, I agree.
Which calcium & vitamins are you giving now?
He looks good, his fat pads are nice & puffy. The Reptisun 10 tube is mounted properly & he looks like it is close enough. I wouldn't think it is metabolic bone disease though.
I think at this point, a blood test should be done to see how his liver & kidneys are doing.
If his urates are hard & grainy you could try cutting down to a couple of times of week to see if that helps out on the consistency. Have his urates looked like this for long?
He had trouble before his brumation correct? Feeding during his brumation could have interrupted his digestion possibly.
Have you tried any bee pollen or colloidal silver to help with his immune system?
Do his eyes follow your finger if you move your finger in front of his eye, etc?

Tracie

 

[Mustashio]

Thanks so much for your response, Drache! I know you have helped me out with Mustashio before when he was quite sick as a baby! Here are my responses to the questions you asked.

Since his fecal was negative, then it shouldn't be that. His fecal was negative, but that was back in October at his regular yearly checkup before brumation. Does that make a difference? Should he have another?

Are you feeding him baby food now? That is a little bit of weight loss, I agree. Yes, I have been giving him baby food now for the last few months exclusively and usually it is by syringe. He occasionally--very occasionally--will eat one hornworm, or yesterday he ate one calcium dusted cricket. Otherwise, it is babyfood. Mostly squash, peas, sweet potatoes, green beans, or chicken with vegi's. Then I mix the calcium and/or vitamins in there and suck it up in the syringe to feed. He won't even lick it off his nose really anymore. But I wouldn't call him lethargic. He still roams around the house when I let him out, and will every once in awhile have a day of crazy activity. (Hormones and the time of year I'm sure. He desperately wanted a girl dragon for Valentines day, I think!)

Which calcium & vitamins are you giving now? When dusting feeders I use Rep-Cal phosphorus free calcium with D3 powder. If I am mixing with baby food, I will usually use the Flukers liquid calcium and mix it in with the baby food. The liquid says 1/4 tsp (1.75ml) 3x per week if feeding directly. and 1/2 tsp 3x per week if adding to food. For the vitamin I use Rep-Cal Herptivite with beta carotene multivitamin powder. I will mix that with baby food too. Oh! I have some Repti-boost powder but I didn't think to use that as supplement. Would that be better?

I think at this point, a blood test should be done to see how his liver & kidneys are doing.
If his urates are hard & grainy you could try cutting down to a couple of times of week to see if that helps out on the consistency. Have his urates looked like this for long? I will try and take a picture of his next poop/urates. I thought I had one but can't find it. He almost always poops in the bath and rarely in his viv. (I'm a little OCD about keeping his cage clean and "poop free"!!) His urates have looked like this since a little after brumation. I know they were normal in October when he went for his checkup and fecal. Perhaps due to interrupting his brumation with feeding? In general, when they brumate do you not worry about the calcium/multivitamin thing? I think I may make an appt with the vet for the blood tests you suggested and also maybe another fecal. He's definitely pooping regularly enough, but some days it is just urates and no poop.

He had trouble before his brumation correct? Feeding during his brumation could have interrupted his digestion possibly. He would still eat hornworms and the occasional super before brumation, but NO vegis. That is why the vet suggested giving him baby food vegis a couple times a week to supplement his feeders. But now he's not eating feeders either.

Have you tried any bee pollen or colloidal silver to help with his immune system? I have not tried these and don't know much about them! Where can I get it? How do you administer it?

Do his eyes follow your finger if you move your finger in front of his eye, etc? Yeah, I guess they do. And yesterday I tried something a little different and put him in a feeder bin with some dusted crickets, and he sat in there for a long time (letting the crickets walk all over him) but then he did turn his head, look at and track a cricket and ate 1 of them. So he does see it I guess, but if I put it near him and it touches his mouth then he closes his eyes and gives me a big huff and sighs like he is annoyed with me so I stop.

I will try and get a pic of his poop/urates and perhaps make a vet appt too. It is so cold here (AGAIN!) so I will have to create a little incubator to get him to the vet! Fortunately its only 20 minutes away and our local reptile shop has all their animals cared for there, so I do trust them.

Thanks so much for your reply. I will keep you posted!

 

[Drache613]

Hello!

I do remember Mustachio as a baby!
I was going to suggest looking into getting another fecal just to be sure that any worms/parasite levels had gotten out of control when he was slown down. Sometimes brumation can bring some issues.
One suggestion I have is if he is maintaining his weight, what you could do is gradually reduce his baby food feedings to see if his natural appetite will come back. Monitor his weight to be sure he doesn't lose anymore weight.
At least he is roaming around the house & not lethargic all of the time. Also, males do tend to become preoccupied with mating than eating many times. Hormone levels are elevated during the springtime.
Your supplementation is fine, also. If you use the calcium powder you wont need the liquid calcium on the same day. Does it mention a strength of the Flukers calcium or just gives a dose to give?
The herptivite vitamins are great, the beta carotene is much safer than synthetic vitamin A. I would give that once a week, is really all he needs. The Repti-boost may help out for him, too.
Normally if they brumate heavily, you don't really need to worry much with the supplementation but if they semi brumate you can give some intermittently. If he doesn't have very large stools it is likely due to not a whole lot of food or just a slown down system. That is frustrating with him not eating any insects though. That is good news he doesn't seem to have a vision problem.
A blood test may prove helpful, just to be sure his liver & kidneys are doing well.
The bee pollen can be found at most health food stores. The colloidal silver should be able to be found there also, or online. The bee pollen comes in granule form or powder & the colloidal silver is liquid.
At least the vet is only 20 minutes away from you, thankfully!

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

 

[Mustashio]

UPDATE!

So I took Tashi to the vet after I witnessed him vomit clear/bile-ish liquid one day after his bath. There was also one tiny white worm-like looking thing in his emesis but it wasn't moving and was the only thing in it that was solid. His stools were also very liquidy and urates were yellow and "fluffy" for lack of a better word. Vet said he might have kidney issues, but only a blood test will confirm and they are getting a new lab testing place so she didn't want to do that just yet. Besides, if it is his kidneys, it would just be comfort care anyway.

So fecal was negative for parasites and eggs, but the vet was concerned about the "worm-like" thing which I took pictures of. It clearly didn't belong there! She was also concerned that he did not want to eat/hunt on his own and thought that he is acting suspiciously like he has worms although they didn't see any. He also lost a bit of weight since October. He was 571g in Oct, and after brumation and his refusal to hunt, and giving baby food via syringe over the last few months, he was down to only 520g this time at the vet.

We decided to treat him for worms anyway with Panacur, one dose every 2wks for 4 doses. Gave him his first dose that day, and the stinker ate 3 hornworms shortly after! In the days after that he would routinely eat 3-4 medium sized hornworms a day! It was like he was making a liar out of me! Just needed to be threatened by the vet! He still turns his nose up at supers though. We will keep trying. But for now, if its hornworms he likes, then that's what we will do! Vet said to still give syringe of green baby food 1-2 times a week too so we still do that. But so far so good!

Thanks Tracie for the good advice (AGAIN!!) I love this board and all its great information! I don't know if I would even have Tashi if it weren't for you guys!!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great news he is getting better now.
When do you expect the blood tests back? I hope his kidneys are functioning optimally!
At least the Panacur helped him out then & his appetite has improved.
Sometimes things are missed on the fecal test so giving the Panacur is fine since he has lost weight & hasn't been eating either.
It should clear it right up if there is anything in his system.
I hope he continues to improve for you, bless him.
I agree, you can give baby food a few times per week if he isn't eating his greens & just to supplement. At least he likes his hornworms though!
Keep us posted on Mustachio!

Tracie

 

[BlueMorpho]

Hi, I have no experience in this area, and it seems like Tracie's helping, so I just wanted to say that I absolutely love the pictures!!! I especially like that he loves to let his belly hang; he's a really handsome (and pudgy ) guy!!
His tank is incredible, too! Did you custom build it?
How's he doing?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Just wondering how he was doing, did you get the blood tests back yet?

Tracie

 

[Mustashio]

Tracie,
We didn't get the blood tests done because the vet was in the process of changing over to this other lab. I may go back and get it done now though, because it seems Tashi has gone backwards.

Those first couple days he ate the hornworms right up, but then after a week or so, wouldn't have anything to do with them again. His poop has still been runny and his urates are still fuzzy and unformed. (I just got a new computer today, so I'm still getting things moved over, otherwise I'd post a pic of his poo). I gave his second dose of panacur on 4/8 and nothing changed. I have been giving pumpkin, squash, peas and green beans--all baby food--by syringe about once a day so that at least he will get his vitamins and calcium, but that isn't going well either now. I still offer worms, and let them crawl in his viv, but he doesn't eat them.

The other day I noticed he seemed to be walking funny, almost with a limp. I thought it might be just the tile in his viv (although he never had an issue with that before) so I put him on carpet and still the same walk. I also noticed that his right front foot, farthest toe out, the nail seems to be dark or bloody on the inside (he is a hypo so his nails are clear/white). Then the next day I noticed it seemed to be hurting him when I touch that foot he pulls it away. Weird. Now it is starting to look puffy.

To add to it, on Friday I was giving him a bath, and he drank a bit and then had a small poop (fuzzy and loose). Then put him back in his viv so I could get his food ready, and as I put him on his basking spot he threw up again. This time it was a nearly whole hornworm (medium sized) and alot of clear liquid. Apparently he ate a hornworm at some point! Ugh! Here we go again! He also seems to be shaking his R foot now too.

It dawned on me that maybe he was a little deficient in the protein area, since the baby food I've been feeding has been only vegi's. So yesterday I gave him 9cc's of Reptiboost. Today I tried to give him some baby food chicken, and as soon as I got his mouth open to put the syringe in, he spat out some cloudy liquid seeping out of his mouth. Every time I tried to open his mouth more liquid would come out. I'm at a total loss. Now I'm worried and of course its Easter so no vet today, and tomorrow I work 10am-10pm, so no vet until at least Tuesday, and I'm not sure if the reptile specialist that has seen Tashi since he was a baby is even in that day.

I'm so lost...I hope he pulls through this whatever it is. Thanks again for everyones continued support and advice! I really appreciate it! I'll update when I hear something.

Jill

 

[Mustashio]

Hi, I have no experience in this area, and it seems like Tracie's helping, so I just wanted to say that I absolutely love the pictures!!! I especially like that he loves to let his belly hang; he's a really handsome (and pudgy ) guy!!
His tank is incredible, too! Did you custom build it?
How's he doing?

Yes, my hubby custom made the viv. The background is actually some bamboo placemats I found at Bed Bath and Beyond that we stapled to the viv! We made the mistake though of allowing crickets into the viv and totally forgot that they can crawl right up those suckers! It was pretty funny when we were running around trying to catch crickets! To remedy the problem we put plexiglass all the way around the viv in front of the placemats and now its all good to go! Lol!

 

[Drache613]

Hello!

Oh gosh, I am terribly sorry he isn't doing real well right now!
It could be a digestive issue, does he stay warm enough most of the time? How late do you feed him in the evening/day?
I wonder if he just needs a different medication other than Panacur?
Could the hornworm have upset his stomach?
Is he able to hold down any food right now without throwing up?
How are his colors, does he have a black beard?
It sounds like he caught his toe nail on something. Do you have any antibiotic ointment to put on it?
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[Mustashio]

Yes, I'm worried about his digestion. When he was at the vet, she said he looked great, fat pads were all healthy and he was definitely trying to evade the vet :lol:, but she was concerned about his lack of interest in feeding himself. The only way he eats is via syringe. He wont hunt anything. And the poops have been very loose and the urates quite fuzzy and half yellow/have white. Of course he always poops in the bath too. I normally feed him in the late afternoon, around 3-4pm and lights go out around 8:30. I work 12 and 16 hour shifts, so it isn't always consistant, but I try not to feed him after 6pm. He almost always climbs up to his basking site to stay though and only climbs off at night when he goes to sleep, or when hes angry at me!

I'm going to call the vet and see if there is something else I can give him, and check on the status of the new lab so we can get bloodwork done. I suppose the hornworm could have upset his stomach, but I'm thinking there must be something else in addition to that, because he never had problems before. The hornworm he vomited was completely undigested and whole, about 1-1/2 inches long. I did eventually get him to eat about 5ccs of baby food chicken mixed with vitamins yesterday, but he wouldn't let me use the long metal syringe, so I had to just put the plastic syringe in his mouth and slowly give it too him. He did not vomit that up. This morning he is still on his basking spot where he fell asleep last night, but his lights have only been on for 30min or so.

Never have I ever seen this tough little dragon black beard. No stress spots on his belly either. At best, he will get darker on the sides of his beard, but not really black. He really is a happy guy. I cuddled with him the other day and he just inched his way closer up onto my chest and nuzzled himself right under my chin. So sweet. And when I "pet" him on the head, he usually closes his eyes and just soaks in all the attention! He is also going through a head shed right now, poor guy. Otherwise I would say he is lighter coloring than normal.

I will put some antibiotic ointment on his toenail. The thing is, it is just dark inside the toenail, like where the quick is. I don't see any trauma to his skin or scales around the area at all. Will give it a shot though. I am going to try and find some bee pollen too, and I'm out of reptiboost, so maybe the vet will suggest some critical care for a protein boost.

I work 10a-10pm today but will call the vet and see what she thinks. I'm bummed I can't be here during the day for my sick baby! I'll keep you updated! Thanks again, Tracie!

 

[kbro]

I don't know much about any serious health issues, but can offer some of my rambling thoughts :lol:

Who do you go to for a vet?https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=204931
Jen had very good luck with valley view pet hospital if you want a second opinion or if they don't have a place yet to do blood work. I was thinking, maybe call the U of M vet center, I'm not sure about prices but they would have the technology I'm sure for blood work and they are close to Roseville.

I would try blending greens or a favorite veggie (did he ever eat any?), and bugs, a good variety would be best instead of the baby food. Or get both critical care (herbivore and insectivore/carnivore) and mix them 80veg/20 protein in my opinion that would be better. Do you still offer greens to him? I know this will sound funny and may not work at all but if you decide to blend/ puree greens do it in front of him, let him see what you put in there and give him the same in his enclosure. I did this with Bam Bam when he was having issues, not even on purpose, one day he walked right over to his dish after seeing me put all the same stuff in the blender (he knew that went into a syringe he ate) and started eating. I was shocked since I was having so much trouble with him, it was like he thought "well if it's all the same junk why wait to eat slop". Also, I havnt seen a probiotic mentioned, that would help if it is digestion issues (although unfortunately it sounds like something more). Petco in Roseville has benebac for bird and reptile in the bird section (they did at least about 1 1/2 months ago), it would be worth it to get anyways if you havnt tried it.

Another thought I had would be to slightly raise his temps, like the 105 to 110 hottest spot range, to give his digestion a kick in the bum, but certainly lower it if he does not bask or like it. Also, maybe raise night temps somewhat (75-80) with ceramic heat emitter. I've heard that can help the immune system as well. Another thought, do you have another way to measure temps? Another digital, or a temp gun. I recently had trouble with my thermometer, just a thought. They opened that new walmart now off of 35w and county rd. C, I picked up a new acurite there (fyi they are in the hardware section at this store).

I hope you figure it out, the poor guy and poor you it is stressful when your animals are not well and you don't know why.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Jill,

How is he doing today? Any improvements?
The suggestions of the increased basking & overnight temps are great. Hopefully that will help out.
How late do you usually feed him?
I think a blood test would be a good idea just to be sure nothing is going on internally right now.
I am glad that he held down the baby food & vitamins.
Has his beard been black today? He sounds so sweet too & loves attention, too.
Maybe you can find some bee pollen also. How is his toe nail looking? The antibiotic ointment should help out the toe nail so it wont get infected.

Let us know how he is doing!

Tracie

 

[kbro]

There is a vitamin shoppe by the petsmart (just in case you didn't know).

I was curious anyways, these are the ones they "say" are in stock at that location I'm not sure which one is better to get though or how much to give hopefully Tracie can point both of us in the right direction:

Limited availability http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/ys-royal-jelly-honey-bee-bee-pollen-500-mg-200-capsules/rj-1014#

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/ys-royal-jelly-honey-bee-bee-pollen-whole-granules-16-oz-granules/rj-7039#.U1ff4FYo5cs

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/bee-pollen-complex-100-tablets/vs-1113#.U1fhGFYo5cs

I'm betting on one of the first two since the vitamin shoppe brand has some other added ingredients.