How to raise hornworms successfully?

[cjzshartzer]

Hey guys! I need a little help. I raised some hornworms to the pupa stage great. Most made it to the cacoon stage but two morphed into half pupa and half cacoon and died. So far out of 12 cacoons, three have turned into moths but had a hard time getting out of thier shell like cacoons and had deformed wings, making them flightless. Out of the three moths I have got 6 eggs and the moths have died. The females are known to lay between 50-200 eggs. Now-out of the remaining cacoons, only one is twitching. The others seem dead but I am waiting on them to see if they hatch.
I can't understand what I am doing wrong. I followed the hornworm diet on manducaproject.com and they ate like pigs. For pupation, I seperated the ones that were wandering and not eating into a seperate container with papertowls that I changed regularly since they loose body fluid. Once they change into cacoons, I transfered them into another container that had a nightlight for day. I really want to raise them properly. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone!

 

[invictusrules]

If the new moths can't climb up on a vertical surface as soon as they break out of the pupal case, they'll have those deformed wings you're describing. A stick will work, or a paper towel pinned to something upright will work great. Make sure it's set up before the moths emerge. Their wings need to hang straight down while they're unfolding/hardening. The fact that you got any eggs at all says you're doing something right!

 

[cjzshartzer]

Thanks so much for the advice. I did some research and found that I was missing something for them to climb on so they can dry and spread their wings like you said. I checked the cases again and some are still alive but not twitching or thrashing the bottom of the casing. I did sex them and I have three males and 7 or eight females. I didn't start out with a large amount since this was more of a starter project. I got the food down to a science and it is mega cheap. I pay $4 a pound where the cheapest I found was $20 a pound plus shipping!

 

[invictusrules]

You'll have more eggs than you know what to do with in a little while! I just wish there was some way to store the eggs to spread out the "feast." I've either got gobs of eggs or none!

 

[cjzshartzer]

Really. I had the three hatch and the rest I believe are dead. Either they are black or not moving at all now. A few of them had soft chrysilis' so I thought they were getting ready to break out. But with no movement when they are touched I knew they had to be dead. I decided to carefully break one open to see and sure enough it was. And it smelled. I did well raising them, makeing homemade diet ( a very cheap version, too), and getting them to turn to a chrysalis in paper towel shredding. Some people use dirt but I was afraid of bugs that may harm or eat them. I think it may be a tempature or humidity issue. Any advice? I am raising them inside close to my dragon's tank so they staywithin warm but not hot. I am going to put my digital temp guage on the tank they are in and start with new chrysalis'. I ordered a 50 count but ended up with about 70! If anyone knows a website that helps with the small problems like temp and humidity and what not, please let me know! Thanks guys!

 

[invictusrules]

You probably had a humidity issue. In the wild, the caterpillars burrow into the ground which allows a constant humidity environment for the pupae. I use aspen shavings as a substrate for them to "rest" in, and I've had about 90%+ emergence. I let them pupate in separate jars of shavings, then re-bury the pupae in community containers of shavings. They're about 2 inches under the shavings. I think they'd go deeper if I let them! :shock:

 

[cjzshartzer]

Thanks for the advice. I did some exstensive research on top of my months of research and found a science labs website where they experiment with hornwoms. They discussed the humidity and I think that is where I went wrong. I have perfected the hornworm artificial diet where it contains no linseed oil. I didn't think this would be healthy for a dragon to consure a feeder that ate furniture polish oil. So, I perfected the diet and actually have two recipes they LOVE! Very, very inexpensive. I am making another batch today to see if i can tweak the recipes once again to make it less costly but no differnce in the quality of nutrition.

Before, I was told you could shred paper towels and place them into a container with the wandering hornworm. I had a 90% pupa change. Only 3 did a half pupa, half worm morph and died. It was wierd. I wasn't misting the towel, thinking it would cause bacteria and other issues. All my pupas lived for some time and eventually stopped twitching and died. Sucks becuase they are costly to buy.

So, after some more research, I found that I needed to start with soil, add the wandering catapillar and add a daily light misting...plus 14 hours plus of daylight. Oh and the 70-80 degree temps. So now I have about six horns in the organic soil mix that I have placed in a aquarium with a screen lid top. Several climbing areas for wing expansion once they emerge. They are indoors to maintain the tempature. Misted lightly daily and placed in the sunlight for 14 hours plus. Hopefully this works. I am even starting a log on the time of emergence and the scientific issues. I really want to raise them as a feeder and sell them at local reptile shows and maybe online. I have raised other insects as well but the horns are a favorite and they as grow fast.

 

[invictusrules]

I have perfected the hornworm artificial diet where it contains no linseed oil. I didn't think this would be healthy for a dragon to consure a feeder that ate furniture polish oil.

Ewww... you're right. But I think the diet calls for raw linseed oil which is a completely different version of flaxseed oil. It is a food product (unlike boiled linseed oil) and has to be refrigerated or it will go bad. The furniture stuff is boiled which changes it. Definitely don't use boiled linseed oil as it may be mixed with some nasty stuff that enhances its furniture-protecting qualities!

The scientific diet is compounded to give the right proportions of nutrients, and leaving one out may result in a product that sustains but does not nourish. Kinda like feeding mealworms or waxies - they're filling, but they don't cover all the necessary nutrients. I don't know why raw linseed oil is included in the diet recipe, but it's there for a definite reason, supported by decades of insect-rearing data. The diet allows hundreds of generations of captive-bred insects to be reared back-to-back, not simply raised for feeders.

Let us know how your efforts go, 'cause the linseed oil is expensive! Especially if it goes bad as quickly as I've heard!

 

[cjzshartzer]

Wow. I read over and over that it was furniture polish. I guess boiled and other ingredients would be the difference between the two. Wonder where I could get linseed oil and what the nutrients are. My ingredient levels are 90% the same and conatin all the needed nutrients. Hopefully everything will go well. Thanks!

 

[invictusrules]

I've seen it in the refrigerated section of the health food store, and I think I've seen it at the grocery store next to the milk. (Publix) I didn't pay much attention, but it was in a dark bottle, about 6 oz. Looked kinda out of place, which is why I noticed it in the first place. Hahaha... what you don't use for your hornworms, you could eat and get all healthy! :lol:

 

[cjzshartzer]

So, I did some research on the linseed oil and some other things about breeding the moths. This time round has went better than the last by far. The worm were purchased at half an inch and grew to 4-4.5 inches quicker than normal. The pupa stage is also going quicker and they pupas look so much better. My first pupa was on 9/11. Now I have about 15-20 pupas and 10 close to it. I hope this breeding goes better. I did extensive research on temps, humidity and tricks of the trade so to speak. So far so good. All the pupas are thrashing. Not only is this fun and science but if all goes well I plan in selling them at the local reptile show. I will keep everyone updated. Oh, and the linseed oil is a food product until boiled. It's main nutritional value is omegas which are great but how do you add linseed oil to the hornworm mix if it is boiled? Maybe after it cools but it just doesn't seem safe to me.

 

[invictusrules]

It's main nutritional value is omegas which are great but how do you add linseed oil to the hornworm mix if it is boiled?

Hmmm... good question. I'm going to hazard a guess here that when they say boiled, they mean a temperature that the oil actually boils at. That would be a lot hotter than the temperature that water boils at. Like you can fry things in oil at 350 degrees, but you can't boil at that temp. (unless you've got a futuristic autoclave :lol: ) The linseed oil is probably the reason the food has a relatively short shelf life, though.

Awesome discussion! Keep it up!

 

[cjzshartzer]

I didn't even think of that. I haven't put lineseed oil in my hornworms diet and have raise a good 75-100 worms to adult size without any problems. My pupa stage before was a failure but I found a little more info on a science website I found. Hornworms are pretty simple once you figure out what they need minus the tomato plants. Still waiting on the arrival of my first moth. I still have 8-12 more days for the first one. I've made a variety of housing for the worms, pupa and moths to see what works best. Tonight I am going to place some tempature gauges and a humidifier in the room.
What's even crazier is now that this project is going so well so far...my female bearded dragon may be pregnant. I'm kinda worried because she is so small and she is getting huge fast. She's eating everything in sight and then some. She is caged seperate from my male but they do play together around the house in a special play area. I didn't witness the act but should have known better than to let them be in the same area. I can't feel eggs but you can tell she is getting ready to shed from the neck down. I will take some pics and see what everyone thinks!

 

[cjzshartzer]

Ok. So, I think my female dragon, Anya is preggers..aka pregnant. I aquired her as a runt from a very great breeder. She was 6 inches at 6.5 weeks old. She is now close to a year and at 15 inches. She is small but long. Her new tummy is 7.5 inches around. It has come across pretty fast. She was eating everything in sight for days. I let her eat as much as she wanted as long as she ate a variety of insects and greens. Today she is sluggish and has only ate greens. She has slept in her log house all day and has hated me taking pics of her and touching her tummy. I am happy that she may be expecting but she is sooo small and she is rather young. I can't see or feel eggs yet. I don't know for sure that they mated but it seems rather evident. Her tummy area is in full shed where the rest of her body is normal. Plus today she is sluggish. Maybe morning sickness? LOL. I've added some pics and will continue. I will take some pics of the hornworn project soon. Thanks everyone!