How to know wether my Baby is suffering or not?

[LuvJazz]

Hi There,

I have an 8 month (I think) old beardie called Jazz. I have noticed he has always been rather skinny no matter how much I feed him (2 times a day and i leave veges in with him in a little water) A week ago he stopped eating so I decided time to take him to the vets. He diagnosed him with a disorder where his rib cage has grown too narrow and is affecting his breathing, which could be the cause of a few things... I have had him in sunlight a minimum of 30 mins daily, his uvb bulb is within 30cm of his basking spot. Temperatures are all as they should be. I have sprinkled his food once daily with calcium supplement and he has still had a problem with his bones.
We put him on antibiotics and he has perked up emmensely and started eating normally again and is really quite active.
My concern is, the vet reccommended putting him down as its not fair on him to keep him alive like this.. but he seems happy? I love him like a baby so I don't want to keep him suffering if he is, but don't want to put him down if I don't need to... How do I know if he is in pain?
Can anybody please give me any advice? My instincts flared at the vets... Ive had to put down a pet before, and i knew it was for her own good.. this time I'm not so sure.
Please help?

Many Thanks

 

[dreshany]

I am sorry you're going through some tough issues with your beardie. I am facing a similar situation in regards to when it's best to let them go. Perry, my juv beardie has been a host of problems since we got him. He is underdeveloped, has MBD, had parasites, broke his jaw and has recently blown out his eye. This is what I decided, maybe it can help you as well. I know when Perry is not well, he darkens, becomes lethargic and basically stops eating. Now I realize that with everything going on with Perry that he will have a lot of ups and downs, but as long as most of his days are positive and his colors are good and he acts happy and healthy then I feel his quality of life is good and he continue our struggle. If he gets to the point that he is dark, lethargic and stops eating, for more than a day or two, I would feel that he is not experiencing a good quality of life and would let him go. I asked our vet recently, when you know it's time to let a beardie go. She said when they stop eating and show signs of giving up, such as listlessness and lack of curiosity.
To me it sounds like you little guy is doing great and I would listen to him and your instinct over a vet anyday. I hope this helps and the best of luck.

 

[Trogdor_1]

I agree with Dreshany. You will be able to tell when your dragon is no longer living a good life.
For the time being, I would start hand feeding your little one some soy yogurt to help his gut. Antibiotics will strip his gut of the good bacteria needed for digestion. The soy yogurt will help put some back.
Its good that you take your little one out for sun light. I do have a few questions though which could help us figure out why he is having bone problems. What type of UV light are you using and how old is it? Also, what type of calcium are you using and how often? Unfortunately, not all bulbs and supplements are the same.
I'm glad that your little one is eating now. That is always a good sign. At 8 months, he should still be chowing down.

 

[LuvJazz]

Thank you guys so much! It's great to be able to get advice from people who can give me an honest answer. The vet just seemed uninterested and a little cold so I was hesitant to listen to him.. Jazz seems really happy, he enjoyed having cuddles last night, except I have to stop feeding him greens the way I do as he is having a hard time swallowing them, which is sad coz he seems to love his greens! I am having to feed him small portions at a time (2-3 bugs at a time max) He's really hungry but wolfing down his food so fast he cant swallow it all. Hes quite a bright yellow at the moment and running around in his tank. Unlike other stories Ive heard about dragons not likeing change he loves me changing his tank around... he goes exploring and loves finding new toys. As long as his box stays where it is (he sleeps in it) hes happy. He seems to be a bit backwards for a beardie... but he is such a sweet heart... hes never bitten me or blown his beard at me. He likes to sit close to me when I am on the couch next to his house. I have never seen ANY signs of agression from him, and his eyes are very bright and alert, holding his head up high. To me, that doesnt seem like signs of suffering. If he gives up on himself, I'll be taking him back to the vets.

I will try the yoghurt, also I have read somewhere that you can feed them baby food is this right? It might be easier for him to swallow...
Ok the light Is a 2ft Sylvania Reptistar. I got it from the breeder. However I am on the hunt for a reptisun 10.0 as I have heard these are the best. Being In New Zealand we have limited stock so I may have to get it in from Australia. I have had it since I got him in June/july so its time to be replaced.
Calcium powder is a flukers calcium powder... not sure what the name is at the moment.. also a flukers multi vitamin. I dust his food once a day and try to leave some on his salad. Although, I wasn't informed they needed calcuim once a day untill a month or two after I got him so he did miss out on a bit when he was younger. I have to buy some more calcium powder so if you can reccomend anything I am happy to give it a try.

He is a little on the skinny side, I think due to him having trouble swallowing (he does occasionally spit it all back up, in which case I make sure I give him water as soon as he does) and also he was being fed probably later than he should have been. I have trained my flatmate into feeding him at 7 in the morning now instead of just him having salad untill I get home at 6pm. He has put weight on in the last few weeks though which is great. thanks again guys.. i love this guys like my own! Well... he is my baby...

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Ah, the Sylvania Reptistar, huh? Here is a UVB meter chart from 2001 that includes the UVA & UVB output for the Sylvania Reptistar:

http://www.reptilesdownunder.com/images/enclosure/files/lightuvlight.pdf

The output is horrible. So, try to find either the Reptisun 10 or the Arcadia D3 12% but make sure you get the flourescent tube bulb & not the compact or coil. Avoid the Reptiglo lights right now, unless you get a basking light, such as the Sun Glo or the mercury vapor bulb the Solar Glo. Those 2 are fine.

I definitely do NOT think he should be put down. I think it is just a few things such as UVB exposure, & lack of calcium absorption due to inadequate UVB exposure. The soy yogurt will help him while he is on the meds.
What exactly did the vet put him on the antibiotics for if you don't mind me asking? I was just curious. If there was no infection or parasites, antibiotics are not usually recommended to be given for a non determined reason.

I think if his ribs have grown strangely it is most likely because he has not been able to absorb his calcium due to the poor UVB lighting. That will cause bones to deviate while they are growing.

The recommended distance for the flourescent tube bulbs are 16-21 centimeters for maximal UVB exposure. If you can, continue giving him natural sunlight daily which helps him immensely!!

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

 

[LuvJazz]

Oh dear!! thats no good at all! Well i am online right now hunting for somewhere I can get a better bulb, and I use flurescent tubes.
I enjoy giving him time out in the sun too.. I have been doing it since I got him. He usually goes toilet outside too so it makes cleaning his cage a little more pleasant.

Oh the antibiotic was for an RI, sorry I should have mentioned that. Was ina hurry writing the post initially. Aparently due to his ribs he is likely to get them easily. I dont mind paying to get him fixed if I need to. The Antibiotic didn't work anyway. He has started gaping again and making his mouth kind of clicks/pops when he opens it so I need to take him to the vet again. I might try the repta aid? herbal remedy maybe... Its gona cost me another $120 to get the tests done Again :s His stool sample was good though.
I wouldnt mind finding a new vet however... this vet may know what he is doing but If they act like they just dont care, I have no faith in whatever they may tell me.

Ok I find a way to get him closer to the UV lgiht... I may have to install another one though. His tank is 1200x600x600 and the lid sits on top with the lighting sitting at 700 up. His basking spot is within a 30mm ruler distance from the light.

Thanks though guys, you've given me some hope

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Were you able to find a good UVB light yet? I hope so.
It sounds like the baytril was not very effective for his RI or he was not dosed properly. Try increasing the temps at night a little bit by using a ceramic heat emitter.
You can get some bee pollen & royal jelly which is a great appetite booster & immune system booster as well. Some people have seen results with the reptaid but I have not used it & it has not been around long enough to know how effective it is.
Great that he is getting some natural sunlight & that he goes potty outside that helps you out alot!

Good luck on getting everything all situated & finding a light. Let us know how he is doing.
How is his appetite today?

Tracie

 

[LuvJazz]

HIya, Yes I have found a reptisun 10.0 and am just waiting for it to be delivered to me
He has a huge appetite at the moment. I cant seem to feed him enough
He does have a ceramic lamp in there, currently on 27 degrees (celcius) at night...
WIll have a look for the bee pollen, is worth a try...

just a question... when he eats, it all seems to sit in the back of his mouth for a while and he keeps his mouth open for ages... I am guessing this is not normal... does anyone know what that might mean?? The vet seems to think it has something to do with his ribs being too narrow

 

[darkcirca]

I know someone mentioned soy yogurt, but you could also get probiotics. I've used Acidophiliz+ for a lot of my lizards, especially when giving them antibiotics.

Do you have a small food processor, or have a neighbor with one you could borrow? You could almost try to liquefy the greens and feed it that way. Just a thought..

 

[MissT]

when he eats, it all seems to sit in the back of his mouth for a while

I know, that dependant upon how much my little guy eats he will often 'hold' food in his throat. My older female also did this when she was eating a larger amount of live food. I believe (although I could be wrong) that they can store food in their throat for later. Im not sure if this is what you are describing but just wanted to comment on my own experiences. Hope this helps

 

[norbertbd]

After eating greens ours opened it's mouth and had a mouthful. He started moving his mouth back and forth like a gagging motion. The result...my young daughter runs from the room screaming she had killed him with greens that were too big.

Naturally I came to this site after the trauma was over and his mouth was clear. I was told this not an uncommon occurance and rather than gagging, that's just a motion they make after eating.

It's just another way for them to drive us nuts.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great you got a Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb ordered. I hope it gets to you soon.
I am happy to hear that he is eating well for you also. They can & do store or hold food in their beards or the back of their throats. Does he appear to be choking on it, or just not completely swallowing all of it then?
Maybe try to give some water to see if that helps him wash it down a little, if needed.
Ok, the ceramic heat emitter will help for over night. The 27C is perfect for overnight heating to help his immune system out. I hope you are able to find the bee pollen, too.
Keep us posted on him.


Tracie

 

[LuvJazz]

Thats exactly what he has been doing!! my boyfriend keeps trying to convince me to stop feeding him so much coz its choking him, but I figure if he keeps eating the food its coz he's hungry and doesnt have a problem so thanks! I can tell him its normal now (he panicks every time haha so cute)
Ocassionally he does spit it back up though... most of the time he just holds it in his mouth.. just when he eats leafy greens he spits it back up. I have started chopping it smaller and moisten it for him and he hasnt seemed to have had a problem...

I have found a little cafe about 20mins away called "bees online" that sells all that kinda stuff so I might have to take a trip for lunch and see if they have what i need. Thanks heaps for the suggestions

I am no longer worried about putting him down... I don't have to he's just too happy and colourfull and HUNGRY!! Thank you all so much!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I hope that little store bees online has what you need good luck!
Yeah he does not need to be put down at all. No problem he is perfectly normal. Plus he is hungry all of the time now too!
Cutting things up in smaller pieces would probably help, too.
Let us know if you need anything.

Tracie