How many dubia should he eat?

[sivuh5]

Hey guys I have some questions on feeding...

First, I've had my beardie for about 2 weeks now. His hatch date is 8/6, so he's almost 6 months old. I thinks he's a little bit underweight at 72 grams. My breeder's husbandry was a little different than what is suggested here, so I've been trying to adjust, while allowing for relocation stress and trying not to shock the little guy.

The breeder fed crickets, mealworms and a supermarket lettuce mixture (spring greens). Her temps were low - around 90 on the hot side. She used a reptisun 10, on for 14 hours, off for 10. I'm also using the RS10, on 14, off 10, and for the first several days I kept my temps low and fed crickets, mealworms and collard greens. He ate the greens and worms well when I mixed the worms into the salad, but he would not touch a cricket. The breeder said he was eating up to 24 crix at a time, with one feeding a day of crix and salad in the viv all day.

Since then I've gotten some dubia's and the good news is, he LOVES them!! I've increased my temps slowly so now the basking area is about 105. He seems to be OK with the warmth - he doesn't try to move away from the light (I've got it set up so he can move a little to one side or the other and cool down by about 3 degrees. He does pant once in a while but it doesn't seem to be alot.

My main question is about the number of dubia he should be eating. It seems like people here are going through alot of them, and my baby only seems to be able to put away about 6 smalls at a feeding. If he gets a larger one it sometimes takes him 10 minutes or so before he's ready for another. Now these are Ian's roaches, so they are BIG! The smalls to me look to be about an inch long, which is about the exact space between Dengar's eyes. I also have a few mediums, which are GIGANTIC, so I try not to give him those, but occassionally I have no choice but to grab a big one and as I said, it takes him a few minutes to get it down and then several more minutes before he wants another one. Are the mediums too big for him? Should he be eating more than 5 or 6 smalls/4 smalls 1 medium at a feeding? Should I feed him twice a day instead of once?

I want to make sure he has what he needs to grow and of course be as healthy as possible. He still has some stress marks when he's in the viv and he has a tendency not to want me to watch him eat. I've been mostly feeding him with tongs, one bug at a time, because the roaches sit still in the dish and he seems to ignore them, but if I show him one with the tongs, he's all over it.

So do you think I'm feeding him enough? He's only been eating the roaches for about 5 days now, so it's still new. Also, since he started the roaches, he hardly eats any greens. I've tried putting worms in with the greens like I used to but he picks out the worms and leaves the greens.

Am I doing the right things, or should I make adjustments?

Thanks for any advice.
S.

p.s. - he's pooping once/twice a day, and it looks normal, although admittedly I don't know exactly what "normal" beardie poop looks like, LOL

 

[paullyn59]

I have a 6 inch baby and he is up to 24-28 baby roaches a day. No real hesitation between roaches.

 

[wes]

Paullyn, how big is a baby roach? When I think of a baby roach, I think of smaller than 1/4 inch. I mean a baby.

Sivuh, I don't know the answers to your questions, but I would be hesitant to feed the mediums, especially if it takes that long (a few minutes???) to get one down. Some of the roach breeders have too many small nymphs available and are offering specials, so I would look into buying more of them.

Ian had a good idea that he posted. Put some roaches in a dog bowl where they can't climb out and leave them in the cage all day. Your beardie can eat them when he wants. And you said he doesn't like you to watch, so maybe that would help.

If you want to know what a healthy poop is supposed to look like, search the Health section. There was a great thread within the last couple of months (I think) that had illustrations describing one and what it means if your beardie's poop doesn't look normal.

 

[paullyn59]

Paullyn, how big is a baby roach? When I think of a baby roach, I think of smaller than 1/4 inch. I mean a baby.

Probably about 1/4 inch with odd smaller ones and odd bigger ones in the mix. The ones smaller than 1/4 inch are too hard to scoop up with a spoon.

 

[sivuh5]

Well, if my smalls are one inch and your babies are 1/4 inch, that's a four to one ratio, so at 6 roaches my dragon is eating the same amount as yours. BUT, he's 12.5 inches long! So I tried putting them in a dish today, he's still eating the same overall number so far, but it's only been one day.

I'll keep trying. I also ordered 100 more smalls, so I hope to steer away from the big 'uns for now!

Thanks,
S.

 

[wes]

Well, if my smalls are one inch and your babies are 1/4 inch, that's a four to one ratio, so at 6 roaches my dragon is eating the same amount as yours.

Actually, your beardie is eating quite a bit more. To put this into perspective, a six foot man is four times as long as an 18 inch baby.

 

[paullyn59]

My logic, for what it is worth and from what sivuh5 seemed to imply, her dragon should be eating twelve 1 inch roaches if mine is eating twenty-four 1/4 inch roaches since her dragon is twice the size. Comparing just our 2 dragons as equal. Unless they should be eating the same amount at all ages just different sizes which means our dragons are eating the same amount (24 = 6). My daughter has a 9 inch dragon and her roaches are about 1/2 inch and i will confirm but I think hers is eating about 10 - 15 roaches a day. Hers will also eat a little salad.

I don't know how many our dragon's are supposed to be eating on average and I don't understand why no one is posting their numbers. It would be good to know if ours may be under or over eating. Mine won't touch his salad, is it because I am feeding him too many roaches? I know all dragons are different.

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

sivuh5... Glad to hear you are using a better set up for your beardie than the breeder. The ReptiSuns, which I'm sure you have read about, are the best fluorescent tube uvb's. Your beardie being 6 months old does seem to be a bit small for it's age. Yes, they do all grow differently, but improper lighting, heating and feeding also play a major role in their growth. Their first year of life is the most crucial, this is when they do most of their growing.
Glad to hear that you have raised the temps. A 90 degree basking area is way too low and leads to improper digesting. Your basking temp of 105 is much better. They generally do well with 100-105 at 6 months of age. Your beardie will usually show you signs if their temps are too high, by not basking as much, hiding or spending more time in the coolside or gaping more than normal.
Just so we know your temps are correct... what type thermometer are you using? What are your temps on the coolside as well?

As far as feeding... a baby or juvenile beardie should be fed 2-3 x a day... all the live feeders they can consume in a 10-15 minute period of time. They can eat anywhere from 30-100 feeders a day. Rule of thumb, as mentioned.... no feeders bigger than the space between their eyes. Considering the size of your beardie, I would recommend staying with the small roaches, especially since it it taking him a while to eat the medium ones. I don't know if you are still feeding the mealworms or not, but they are not a great nutritional feeder.
In the case that you don't have it, here is a great list of foods to feed your beardie http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html
The collard greens are great... stay away from the lettuces, they are mostly water and are not very nutritous. If your beardie is not taking to his salads, try mixing it up a bit with a variety of veggies from the list. Some beardies love the brightly colored veggies as well. Don't fret too much on the salads, although still offer them daily. Right now your beardies diet should consist of 80% feeders/protein and 20% veggies.
Are you supplementing with Calcium and Multivitamins? At this age, they should get calcium 5 x a week(only dusting one feeding a day) and multivitamins 2 x a week(only dusting one feeding a day)

I hope this helps

 

[Buggsy]

just wanted to put a quick word in here, spring greens are actually collard greens, its a UK/US thing. Collard greens is just a type of cabbage with a lip or collar on the leaves, and its what we call in the UK spring greens. If you go looking for collards you wont find them over here (took me 6 months to work it out!)

 

[wes]

My logic, for what it is worth and from what sivuh5 seemed to imply, her dragon should be eating twelve 1 inch roaches if mine is eating twenty-four 1/4 inch roaches since her dragon is twice the size. Comparing just our 2 dragons as equal. Unless they should be eating the same amount at all ages just different sizes which means our dragons are eating the same amount (24 = 6). My daughter has a 9 inch dragon and her roaches are about 1/2 inch and i will confirm but I think hers is eating about 10 - 15 roaches a day. Hers will also eat a little salad.

I don't know how many our dragon's are supposed to be eating on average and I don't understand why no one is posting their numbers. It would be good to know if ours may be under or over eating. Mine won't touch his salad, is it because I am feeding him too many roaches? I know all dragons are different.

The point I was trying to make is that six one inch nymphs is much more than twenty-four 1/4 inch nymphs, because they don't just grow in length, but in height and width as well. A better measurement would be weight, but most of us wouldn't have a scale sensitive enough for something that small.

I've never had a baby beardie, but from what I've read, it's not uncommon for them to not eat salad and that the salad intake increases as they get older.

There is a thread in the Feeders section where a couple of people have posted how many Dubias they are feeding to their beardie http://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=121718. We've just completed phasing out crickets and using Dubias instead, so I don't have a number I'm comfortable posting yet. I wish more people would post, too. Not only for the reasons you stated, but for planning how many Dubias are needed.

 

[sivuh5]

Thanks to all for your help.

I'm using an Accurite digital probe thermometer and my cool side runs about 73 degrees.

I do think he is a little small for his age, and I'm attributing that to the meal worms and of course genetics must play some role. I don't know how large the parents were.

Today he ate two small roaches that were left over in the dish from the night before, that was this morning. I think he ate some mustard greens, although it's hard to be sure. Then tonight he ate 9 small roaches, in about 12 - 15 mins. He likes to be hand fed with the tongs - he'll go to the dish and eat three or four one right after the other, then he leaves the dish and goes to the basking spot. If I leave him alone, that's it. If I wait 3 or 4 minutes and then offer him one roach at a time with the tongs he'll usually eat 2 or 3 more. Then I'll leave a few in the dish. If I leave him alone, that will be it and he'll wait until morning to eat those remaining. If I wait 5 or ten minutes and get the tongs, he'll eat maybe one or 2 more.

I am dusting with repti-cal and vitamin powder as described... he likes the dusted bugs better than plain, and will also eat dusted greens better than plain. Is it possible to over-dose on the dust?

Clearly he likes to take his time! I'm trying to get him to associate the dog dish with eating, and I really don't want him to get too used to the tongs, on the other hand I want him to eat!!

FYI, here in the US, collard greens are labeled as such and the bag of "spring greens" that the breeder was feeding lists the ingredients as several types of lettuces, none of which are on the "most nutritious" list. This week I'm trying mustard greens for the first time, as the grocery store was out of collard greens. He has also tried a strawberry, a blueberry and some cooked butternut squash, but he doesn't seem too enthusiastic about any of them.

I guess the thing is that I really can't make him eat more - he'll only take what he wants. My new strategy is to give him four or five roaches in the dish in the morning and leave him, then the regular feeding I've been doing (as many as he'll take) in the evening. I was restricting protein in the morning in an effort to get him to eat the greens, but I think now I should not worry about greens.

Also I just ordered some more smalls, so as I feed them out and have only mediums left I won't feed him any mediums, instead I'll add those to my colony when I start it up next month.

Thanks again for any help/advice, and anyone else feeding roaches, please provide your numbers as it seems quite a few people would like to know.

Sue

 

[sivuh5]

OK, so Dengar at 6 smalls this morning and 14 this evening. I'm switching to two protein feedings per day to try to get his weight up.

Also, I got my new shipment of "smalls" today, and I now see part of the issue... as I said, Ian's bugs (Roach Ranch) are huge, and his "smalls" I would estimate at 3/4 to an inch. The order I received today was supposed to be 100 smalls and I would say these average approx. about 4 to 1 on size - four of the new bugs vs. one of Ian's. So if most people are going by this as their "small" description, it would make sense that my dragon eats 6 roaches while theirs eats 24. It was truly shocking when I opened the box - I purposely switched suppliers because I thought Ian's were a little TOO big, but now I feel gypped because these are microscopic in comparison! I'm going back to the Roach Ranch!!

Sue