Help! Sick baby!

[EllenD]

Oh I'm sorry he's seemingly getting worse, but I agree with Tracie, I think he was overheated and dehydrated for quite a while, plus as you said he had no UV at all prior to coming home with you, and Dragons are very effected physically by stress, their immune systems seem to break down when they are stressed and his parasite counts (Coccidia most likely) has probably gone up from zero or low to moderate to high. This combined with no nutrition and the dehydration causes a downward spiral.

His arms being "tucked into his sides" all the time does sound like an MBD symptom, they often fold their front legs together or underneath themselves with MBD. How are his back legs working? Is he at all dragging them or having trouble with bowel movements? And speaking of bowel movements, when was the last time he had one? Realize that "No Food In=No Food Out", but if he's getting liquids/baby food he should still be excreting something. I'm just worried about a possible impaction, that's always a possibility with very small, young babies too, especially with a possibility of MBD, sometimes they lose the strength in their back end and seem to "strain" to even pass liquids.

Right now the main goal is to try to get as much nutrition and hydration in him as possible. Small amounts frequently throughout the day are much better than large amounts all at one time. Feeding him baby foods that have a higher protein/calorie/fat content is best, the one that I found recently that not only has an unusually high calorie/protein content was a $0.60 little jar, Gerber brand, and it is "Sweet Potato Corn". (My 6 month old recently had a very high Pinworm count and stopped eating). He really likes the Sweet Potato, so while looking for it at Walmart I was reading labels to find the one with the most calories/protein/fat, and after reading dozens of labels, the "Sweet Potato Corn" had the most calories/protein/fat, even much more than any of the meat flavors, surprisingly. He liked it too.

I would also buy some unflavored Pedialyte (or the generic store brand) and add it to the baby food to help get him extra electrolytes. I use the unflavored Pedialyte to thin pretty much anything I'm force-feeding. It really seems to perk them right up within minutes of taking it.

I'm also glad that you got a 24" Reptisun UVB tube and that you have it mounted underneath the mesh lid...Is it the weaker T8-strength or the stronger T5HO-strength? Either is good, you just have to make sure that if it's the weaker T8-strength that he can get within at least 6" of it (as opposed to within at least 11" of the stronger T5HO), because if it's any further away from him he won't be able to get adequate UVB light from it. The UVB tubes don't get hot like the basking bulbs or the CHE's, so no need to worry about him burning himself on the UVB tube. Also, just as an FYI, the T8 tubes must be replaced once every 6 months, the T5HO tubes once every year.

If you're having trouble force-feeding him (it can be very stressful for both you and him) you can try the folded-cardboard method that Tracie explained, it works well for some dragons, but I also have my own method that I find very easy and much less stressful than a lot of other methods of force-feeding that you can try...

I don't know what you're using to force-feed him with, but for my method you simply need either an oral syringe that has a tip on it, or a disposable "Leur-Slip" syringe that you can buy at any Tractor Supply very cheaply, a box of 6 Leur-Slip syringes (without needles of course) that are the 3ml volume costs a little over $2 at Tractor Supply. They have other volumes, that really doesn't matter, but since I usually force feed 3ml at a time, I buy the 3ml ones. And not only are the Leur-Slip syringes cheap, but I find that they have a longer tip than most Oral Syringes do, I guess because they are meant for a needle to "slip over and onto the tip", so they have a longer tip. And the tips on the Leur-Slip syringes seem to also be much skinnier than the tips on most oral syringes, so they work better for small babies. Either with work though, just don't confuse the Leur-Slip syringes with the "Leur-Lock" syringes that Tractor Supply also sells in the same section, as the "Leur-Lock" syringes do not have any tip at all, they have an internal locking system for the needles to attach to, so they don't work at all for force-feeding.

So here's what I do: First of all, I always add a pinch of their Calcium powder to the slurries, and also a very small pinch of their multivitamin powder to them as well. I also always heat the slurries up in the microwave, so I mix them in a little microwave-safe container, and then nuke them for 30 seconds, mix very well, and then nuke for another 30 seconds. Remove from the microwave and then mix again extremely well (you don't want any hot-pockets of slurry). Then I fill the syringe I'm using and test a little on my wrist, just like you would test a baby's bottle. You want the slurry to be warm, but not hot.

So this is the easiest and least stressful way I've found to force-feed a dragon liquids/slurries when you need to get more nutrition and/or hydration in them than you can just by dripping it on their snouts. After you do this a few times it becomes very easy, and even the dragon gets the hang of it. They won't "like it", lol, but it won't hurt them or scare them. So fill your syringe with the amount of slurry you'll be giving him (so you don't have to stop and refill all the time), and then put the dragon on a flat surface in front of you. You're going to hold him with your non-dominant hand, and then work the syringe with your dominant hand. Start by inserting the tip of the syringe under the dragon's upper lip, on the SIDE of his mouth/head, back towards his ear. Once you get the tip of the syringe under his upper lip on the side of his mouth/head, slowly slide the tip of the syringe up his mouth and towards the tip of his snout, keeping the tip of the syringe under his upper lip the entire time. Be ready with your thumb on the plunger of the syringe while you're sliding the tip up his mouth. For whatever reason (I really don't know why, but it seems to always be true) once the tip of the syringe nears the front of his mouth/tip of his snout, the dragon will automatically open up his mouth. As soon as he opens up his mouth the tip of the syringe will typically fall into his mouth and end up in-between his teeth (like he's chewing on the tip of the syringe, which he probably will actually start to do), if the tip of the syringe doesn't automatically end up inside his mouth, when he opens his mouth just put the tip in between his teeth, this will keep him from shutting his mouth, and then gently and slowly push a small amount of the slurry into his mouth. You'll see him making "chewing" and "swallowing" motions, after they stop then push a little more slurry in, allow him to swallow it, then push a little more in, etc. Continue to do this until you get the entire amount of the slurry in him. Keeping the tip of the syringe in-between his teeth will keep his mouth from shutting, but if for some reason the tip comes out from between his teeth and he does get his mouth shut, you'll need to start over again, by putting the tip of the syringe under his upper lip, back on the side of his mouth/head, and then again slide the tip of the syringe up the side of his mouth towards the tip of his snout, until he again opens his mouth, and then repeat. After you do this once or twice you'll get the hang of it. It's the quickest, easiest way I've found to force-feed a dragon...

 

[spinyheliantheae]

Thank you, I will try that. I'm going to the vet on Friday, what should I ask for in terms of parasites? Any treatments I should ask about?

 

[spinyheliantheae]

And to answer your questions -
1. He seems to use his legs a little, his back legs do drag a little and his grip isn't very strong at all.
2. He hasn't had a full bowel movement in about 1-2 weeks, I'd say. He drinks from his water pool when I put him in it and will climb out when he is done drinking, but it seems like he's expending a momentous amount of effort to crawl down, he doesn't actively go back up to his basking spot.

He ate three crickets today, I crushed them with some feeding tongs and put them in front of him. He seems to have perked up a little since he's eaten but I'm still going to try the baby food, as I didn't dust the crickets because I didn't expect him to eat them.

 

[spinyheliantheae]

Update: tried feeding him with the syringe. He didn't like it at first AT ALL but after realizing he liked the food he lapped away at it, lol. I only got him to eat about 2 ml before he slowed down and started twitching his head away from me, so I called that just about good. How often should I be feeding him? Every couple hours?

 

[EllenD]

2ml is pretty good!!! It gets easier the more you do it, they seem to get the hang of it too. No matter what method you use it's not going to be fun, lol, but with small babies I don't at all like "tube-feeding" them with a crop needle (where you actually insert a metal crop needle down their esophagus and deliver the nutrition directly into their stomachs). They are too small and delicate, and it's often extremely difficult to differentiate the esophagus from their trachea, and then that's a fatal mistake. Some very experienced Certified Reptile Vets will do this in hospital if it's gotten to the point that it's life-threatening, and that's fine, but doing this at home with small babies makes me uneasy. So this is the best way I've found to do it. I'd be giving him at least 3-4 feeds a day that way, it's such a small amount of nutrition they are getting that many small feeds not only deliver a total amount that's pretty decent for a day, but they also seem to feel much better after they get even a few ml's in them, so if you do it many times throughout the day, I believe that it helps them to better recover.

It sounds like he's either got a calcium deficiency/low bone density going on (MBD) from a lack of adequate UVB light or too short a photoperiod (should be 13-14 hours a day with both his bright white basking bulb and his UVB tube on), or he's just extremely weak from not eating, or a little a both (most likely). You've not got an adequate UVB tube for him, and I believe it's mounted underneath the mesh lid, unobstructed, and is within at least 6" of him (if a T8 UVb tube, 11" if a T5 UVB tube). So that's the main thing you needed to do in order to start to reverse any calcium deficiency or any start of MBD. If you're not already doing this, be sure to add a pinch of his Calcium powder and a high-quality Reptile Multivitamin powder to the slurries you're feeding him, so he gets a little of both every time you feed him. That way he'll not only be getting adequate calcium supplementation to aid with reversing the MBD, but also getting the Multivitamin to help with any other vitamin deficiencies. Something that is becoming extremely common in bearded dragons is a Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) deficiency, which displays signs/symptoms that are pretty much exactly the same as those of MBD, so it's happening a lot that Dragon owners who have always had perfect husbandry as far as a high-quality UVB tube that is mounted unobstructed and within the correct distance, replaced every 6 months or every year, etc. and who have been giving ample calcium supplementation are starting to see their Dragon's exhibit signs and symptoms of MBD, and they can't figure out why. And usually it takes a ton of testing until the vet finally does blood work and tests for a Thiamine deficiency to find out what the issue is. (you cannot take blood from a baby like your dragon, so it's a guessing game when this happens). They do drag their back legs and become partially paralyzed, twitch, shake, etc. with the Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency too, the only symptom of MBD that a Thiamine Deficiency doesn't show is any type of bone deformity in their face/skull, such as an underbite, as these result from low bone density from a lace of calcium. Other than that, the symptoms are the same. So be sure he's still getting both supplements in his slurries.

When you go to the vet (I hope he's an experienced reptile specialist, if not then ask a lot of questions, get a copy of EVERYTHING they do, prescribe, all test results, etc., demand this!!!) and if you're planning on taking a fecal sample and having parasite testing done, you must be sure to ask a few key questions that they tend not to tell you, and be sure to stand your ground about this, because often inexperienced vets (usually these are "exotics" vets with little to no Bearded Dragon or reptile experience) tend to do far more damage than good and make the dragon much worse than they were to begin with, and often this ends tragically. They love to over-medicate and medicate for parasites when it's completely unnecessary, and this will only cause less of an appetite, more lethargy, and often with young babies, death...so here's the deal on the parasites:

1.) Always ask "What specific parasites he tested positive for" and write them down or get a copy of the fecal test results. Also, ask what fecal tests they ran, such as a "Gram Stain", and "Fecal Float", etc.
2.) Always ask "What was the count/load of each different parasite that he tested positive for".
3.) Always ask "What's the name of each different medication that the vet wants to give him", "What parasite each different medication they want to give him is meant to treat", and "What is the dosage and the frequency of each different medication he's being prescribed"...

Here's what has been happening a lot: Most all Bearded Dragons, if tested on the spot, will test positive for certain parasites in at least low counts/loads. The 2 most common are Coccidia, which is actually a Protozoa, and the second is Pinworms (or just Pinworm eggs). There are many that they can test positive for, and don't get me wrong, there are a lot of parasites that are harmful even in very low counts/loads, but there is a reason that most dragons test positive for Coccidia and Pinworms when a fecal is done, and that is that most dragons live a good portion of their lives with a low count/load of Coccidia and Pinworms/Pinworm eggs in their Gastrointestinal Tracts. If your dragon has a low appetite and is lethargic but only tests positive for a low count of Coccidia or Pinworms/Pinworm eggs, or both, most any Certified Reptile Vets will not treat for this. The counts of either of these need to be at least moderate to high in order for them to be causing a problem, and are most likely NOT the cause of your dragon's issue.

The end result of inexperienced "exotics" vets treating a dragon with harsh AntiProtozoan or AntiParasitic medications for only a low count of Coccidia and/or Pinworms/Pinworm eggs, respectively , is that the dragon becomes much more worse off from the harsh meds than they were to begin with. So personally, if the counts/loads of either of these show up as being low, I don't treat them. Now recently my 6 month old male stopped eating (he was literally a garbage disposal and one day he just stopped eating all together), and I took him to my Certified Reptile Vet of 15 years, who did a Gram Stain in addition to other fecal testing, and Dee Dee tested positive for a low Coccidia count and then a Pinworm/Pinworm egg count that was "too numerous to count". So we chose to obviously medicate him for the Pinworms/Pinworm eggs with Panacur (the most commonly prescribed Antiparasitic medication for Pinworms, and actually is not that harsh a drug, but I still would not have medicated him for the Pinworms had they tested as being present in a "low" count/load), but I did not medicate him at all with an AntiProtozoan medication for the "low" Coccidia count/load. He's doing fine after a 3 day treatment of Alfalfa meal medicated with Panacur. And the "low" Coccidia counts are not effecting him at all. So you have to advocate for him, and please feel free to post his results and recommendations on here before proceeding with any treatments, so you can get the opinions of experienced owners.

Another thing to keep in mind, as I mentioned that the drug Panacur is the most commonly used to treat Pinworms/Pinworm eggs, there are a host of drugs used to treat Coccidia and other parasites, and doing some research about which ones are not only most effective in treating what parasites, but also as importantly what drugs are not as harsh as others. Toltrazuril is the medication that I recommend for a moderate to high Coccidia count/load, as it's very effective and is not nearly as harsh as other drugs that old-time vets like to use. If he does end up having a moderate to high Coccidia count, I highly advise requesting Toltrazuril as opposed to any other drug. I also highly recommend putting him on a Probiotic, in fact I would be adding a Probiotic to his slurries right now. This will do a couple of things, the first is coating his stomach and easing it, making the drugs less harsh on his tummy, but also possibly upping his appetite right now, before he even takes any medications. The other reason to start him on a daily Probiotic is that many of the medications he might be prescribed (specifically any antibiotics to treat a bacterial infection or any AntiProtozoan meds to treat the Coccida) naturally kill-off all of the healthy, normal bacteria that lives throughout their gastrointestinal tracts, and this normal, healthy bacteria that is always present in the GI tracts of a healthy dragon is what keeps harmful fungi from growing throughout their intestines. So what often happens when a dragon is put on either an Antibiotic or an Antiprotozoan medication is that the medications will rid them of the bacterial infection or the protozoan infection that is making them ill, but then they will develop a yeast infection throughout their intestinal tract, secondary to the Antibiotic or the Antiprotozoan medications. The Probiotics replace this healthy, normal bacteria throughout their GI tracts and keep a secondary yeast infection from developing.

I highly recommend adding a Probiotic to his slurries now, it will not hurt him at all and can only help. I also recommend using one that also includes added naturally occurring digestive enzymes, as these often tend to increase their appetites by helping them to properly digest their food. I gave my 6 month old one in his force-fed slurries before, during, and for a week after he finished his Pinworm treatment with Panacur, and not only did he start eating a little before I ever medicated with the Panacur, but his bowel movements normalized and were no longer runny at all, and this prevented any unnecessary dehydration. The one I use (also use for my parrots in the same manor, and when I bred and hand-raised/hand-fed English/American Budgies and Cockatiels, not only for illness but also to prevent Slow-Crop and Crop-Stasis) I buy at Walmart, it's the "Spring Valley" brand, which comes in a green bottle with a yellow label and cap, and is located in the human vitamin aisle within the "Spring Valley" brand rack. It's called "Probiotic Multi-Enzyme Digestive Formula", and you can buy a bottle of 200 tablets for $5.99 I believe. I just crush up 1 tablet very well and add a good-sized pinch of the powder to their slurries (or to the baby bird formula). Again, it can't hurt him at all and can only help, and in my experience and in the experience of a lot of others, it helps tremendously. I liked this one the best when I was initially researching for one to give to my baby birds because it includes not only several different strains of healthy bacteria, but also every major, naturally occurring digestive enzyme and amino acid.

 

[spinyheliantheae]

He's looking much better already, and even started a long overdue shed. He's very very weak still, I'm not sure he can use his legs too well yet. He pooped though, so there's a good sign ?