Heavy breathing + bubbles in the mouth

[Namipulla]

Hello!

I'd like to ask about my 5-year-old male that's been having weirdish symptoms for a while now. It began with him puffing up and breathing heavily after eating. He only did this sometimes and didn't seem ill, so first I wasn't alarmed. Then he started doing it always after eating, it seemed he was having a hard time either with his digestive system or breathing. He would only do it immediately after swallowing and then calm down. Then I noticed he also does it when he's distressed or scared. He hates baths, so he'd do it right after I pick him up from the water. He literally looks like Homer Simpson burbing, the sides of his mouth flare and there are bubbles forming. He also seemes to have excessive amount of saliva in his mouth. Not really slime in my opinion. When he calms down, his breathing is just fine, no wheezing, snapping or anything. But during these "seizures" his breathing looks very tedious and consuming. It doesn't really fit well into RI description. I first thought he had something wrong with his stomach.

His activeness really varies. Sometimes he's going through the roof, running around, scrathing walls and acting like male beardies do in the spring, then the next day he just lies on his basking spot, looking really sleepy. He's been losing weight and looks constantly dehydrated even though I've been giving him water every day. He refuses anything else besides worms now. I took a fecal sample and there were coccidia so I treated him with Ditrim but it didn't do anything to this issue. His poop is more solid now though, it was kinda runny and really smelly before.

After Ditrim not helping I took him to the vet 1,5 weeks ago, and the vet suspected a mouth infection. She couldn't say for sure and the reptile caring in my country is really not that professional yet, unfortunately. But this vet has treated reptiles before. In her opinion my beardie's mouth looked slimy and kinda red. She prescribed enrofloxacin (same as Baytril) to be given orally once a day. After a week's treatment I thought my beardie was doing better since he hadn't been doing those puffing things for a while. Then again, I couldn't say for sure since he doesn't always do them. And then today I saw him do it again, after eating and also after a bath. He's been on enrofloxacin for 10 days now. I know it's a hard medicine for reptiles so since he's not getting better, I think I will stop it. I've been giving acidophilus during the antibiotic treatment. I will call the vet again tomorrow but my fear is that she'll not be able to diagnose my boy. So therefore I'm asking you guys. Has anyone had a beardie with the same symptoms? Could it be pneumonia? He's been having symptoms for months now, to be honest (like I said, first it didn't look alarming). I think RI should have gotten worse sooner. If he's got pneumonia, what kind of antibiotics are used for beardies?

Enclosure information:
150 cm x 50 cm / 59,1 x 19,7" tank (3 wooden walls with glass doors in the front)
Warm side: 105 - 110 F (it was a little lower before but then I thought he's got RI so I brought it up)
Cool side: 75 - 77 F
Lighting: Arcadia 12 % D3+ tube, two regular tubes for light and a regular house bulb of 60W for basking.
Substrate: Newspaper, before that camping mattress (the one they use underneath sleeping bags)
Diet: Crickets, roaches, mealworms, superworms (but at the moment he refuses anything besides worms), veggies: arugula, frisee salad, watercress, sprouts, butternut squash, carrots etc. Never cabbages, regular salads or such. Collard greens are not available in my country.
This time of the year in my country the humidity is very low, around 20 %. During summer it's usually max 40 %. This is also the humidity in the tank.

I hope I expressed myself clearly enough. I'm not a native speaker and my country uses metric system so I had to use converters. Any advice is welcome!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,
I am sorry your boy is having some trouble.
Your tank setup looks fine to me, the temperatures are great. Are you using a digital probe or temp gun to measure the temperatures?
The humidity is good as well especially if he is having trouble with any respiratory issue.

The Baytril is routinely used for respiratory infections. If you suspect pneumonia which it is sounding like it is a large possibility. Baytril would be used for that, or maybe Tylosine/Tylan also. If oral meds are not improving his condition then I recommend trying to get him some nebulizer treatments. Reptiles do not have cilia in the lungs which makes it much harder for them to clear out any debris or infection from the lungs. Cefz can also be used as a broad spectrum antibiotic, too. What antibiotics can you get there & I can check on them for you.
I am glad to hear you were giving the acidophiliz too while he was on meds.
You could consider getting an x-ray too just to see if there is any fluids on or around the lungs.
Can you get iodine/betadine in your country to dilute it down to clean out the mouth?

How close is he to the Arcadia D3 12 % tube bulb? Is it mounted on top of a screen top of the tank or underneath inside of the tank?
Be sure to keep him around 80 over night to help boost his immune system right now.

You can post pictures him as well as your tank setup too, if you can.

Tracie

 

[Namipulla]

Thank you very much for your answer! I really appreciate you taking concern of my problem.

I use a digital thermometer with a probe. The UV tube is outside of the tank but the cover is a mesh with thin "wires" and holes of 0.79 x 0.79" (2 x 2 cm). So I think UV rays should get through it just fine. It is possible to place the tube inside the tank, too, if necessary. The distance of the tube and the basking spot is 11 - 14 inches. It's kinda up and onto the side from the beardie, not directly above him, since there's the basking spot lamp. I replace the tube yearly and for the past years I've only used either Zoomed Reptisun or Arcadia.

Some things I forgot to add in my first post. I dust with multivitamin usually once or twice a week and with calcium 4-5 times a week. I started giving him a vitamin B supply, because he had strange spasms or more like tics in his tail. It doesn't look like MBD to me, more like when people have a tic in their eyelid. He weights now a bit under 400 grams. I'm his first and only owner, purchased him when he was a couple of months old and he's been really healthy thus far.

I think I should suggest x-ray to the vet. I'd like to see the condition of his bones anyway. I'm pretty sure we can get any antibiotics necessary, but I'd just like to know which ones are used in case my vet is not aware. Tylosine I couldn't find (what is the effecting antibiotic in it?), Cephalosporin seems to be available. Betadine we have and I've used it before to clean any minor injuries. But I really can't get him to open his mouth. The breeder of my other dragon told me to pull slightly on the beard but it didn't work. I don't think I can open his mouth without really hurting him. Luckily he licks anything I drop on his nose so I can give him medicine.

What concerns me is that this condition is so "untypical". Shouldn't he have to have symptoms all the time and not just occasionally or under certain circumstances? Today he didn't do this heavy breathing at all even though I fed him and gave him a bath. He didn't like the bath and was kinda distressed after it, breathing heavily but normal-heavy, not wheezing or drooling. After that he tried to climb into my female beardie's tank.

I tried to call my vet today but she was absent. I'll call her tomorrow again to ask what to do. I gave my boy the medicine today, since I don't want to stop it before the vet's approval.

Here are some photos (hosted on Photobucket). You can see how wrinkled he's become! It sometimes looks like his lungs would have collapsed - but he can fill them when he puffs himself or breaths deeply.

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr334/Namipulla/P1030458_zps6a6ee12f.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr334/Namipulla/P1030465_zpsc85ef402.jpg
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr334/Namipulla/P1030457_zps8be44ce6.jpg (half of the tank only, not very pretty but it has worked thus far. There is the basking spot and UV tube above him, just outside the pic.)
http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr334/Namipulla/P1030456_zpsc5e3fc20.jpg (he's shedding and very tired, it's 10 pm here and I woke him up to take photos)

Again, thanks a lot and I hope this additional information helps!

 

[Namipulla]

Okay, I think this is getting quite urgent...

Yesterday I finally reached the vet. We decided to stop the antibiotic since there was no visible effect. After I described the symptoms again, she then told me to give my boy Antepsin. So she started to suspect reflux. That was my initial thought, too.

I gave my beardie Antepsin yesterday. He didn't really take it well. Today he's been really lethargic and his beard is constantly black. Obviously he's in pain. I gave him probiotics and nothing else today. He was about to go to bed already but when I went to see how he's doing, he was holding his head up and seemed to swallow a lot. It's like he's trying to push something down. Maybe vomit?

He can't go to sleep now because he just keeps his head up. I'm totally freaking out here and I'm afraid he's going to die on me. My older beardie died suddenly last August. I don't know if I can handle another loss this soon. The emergency vet here don't know a lot about reptiles and my regular vet is only open daytime. I'll call there tomorrow morning but before that I don't know what to do. Please help!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Most of the time, they don't handle medication like that very well at all.
How long did you try the antibiotic? It does take a little while for them to take effect. Reptile's systems work slowly so I would keep him on an antibiotic at least 7-10 days for a respiratory infection.

For now, if you can get hold of some activated charcoal to help with cleaning his system out that may help.
Can you determine exactly when he breathes heavily, etc? Is it just after a bath, or can he see your female?
If he had a respiratory infection, he should exhibit symptoms all of the time, correct.
Starting a B vitamin is a good idea if you don't feel it is metabolic bone disease.
Does he still have bubbles in his mouth today?
Tracie

 

[Namipulla]

Luckily he calmed down last night and in the morning was pretty much back to normal. He won't eat though but I think it's normal after Antepsin made him so sick. I called the vet today again and she agreed with me that now I won't give any medicine for a couple of days and let my poor boy recover. After that we are probably going to try another, milder stomach med. I've given acidophilus today with some calcium carbonate to neutralize possible stomach acids.

He was on enrofloxacin for 12 days with no real effect. After talking to the vet again she thought it might be acid reflux after all. Heartburns may cause the excessive amout of saliva in the mouth, too.

This puffing and heavy breathing with bubbles only occur when he's scared (in the bath or at the vet's) and after eating. But doesn't happen always even then! There are days when it doesn't occur at all. When he's excited or positively agitated, e.g. he sees my female, it's never happened. He's pretty much normal then. I can hear his breath wheezing a little only when he's having these fits. At night or when rested he breathes silently.

All in all, it's pretty weird. Thank you for answering me! I was so worried last night but now he seems okay again.

 

[traceyb73]

Hi, I am so sorry to hear about the problems your sweet little boy has been having. I was just wondering how is doing today and if you were able to get to the vet. My beardie has had issues with RIs also. It's awful to see them having so much trouble.

I hope you can get him all fixed up soon. I wish you all the best.

 

[Namipulla]

Thank you, tracey!

At the moment we don't think it's RI after all. More like a stomach problem, such as reflux. He's off meds right now. Today he was tired and didn't eat anything besides what I fed him (acidophilus + calcium carbonate and a bit vegetable purée). He seemes calmer and that awful swallowing stopped over the night. I hope after a couple of days he will start eating again. He hasn't been eating much lately, though.

 

[traceyb73]

Thank you, tracey!

At the moment we don't think it's RI after all. More like a stomach problem, such as reflux. He's off meds right now. Today he was tired and didn't eat anything besides what I fed him (acidophilus + calcium carbonate and a bit vegetable purée). He seemes calmer and that awful swallowing stopped over the night. I hope after a couple of days he will start eating again. He hasn't been eating much lately, though.

Aw, poor little man, their little bellies are so sensitive and those meds for the RIs are tough on them. I do have the acidophilus for mine too and she just loves the taste of it too, which is so cute to watch. I know it's difficult for you to get alot of things because of where you live, but do you have any access to Critical Care? You can find it online if you can get it shipped to you or the vet's office may even have it (it's not just for bearded dragons). The veggie puree is probably a really good idea as it's easier to digest. Please keep us posted on how he is doing.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am glad to hear that he is doing better today without having the swallowing issues.
Be sure to keep him around 80 overnight to help his immune system, also.

Can you get the UVB to a 6-8 inch distance for him to help with calcium absorption?
The finer mesh can decrease the UVB emissions so I would recommend trying to mount it inside of the tank, directly overhead. Can you get it alongside of the basking light?
The tube bulbs are pretty good & the emissions last a pretty good while with either the Reptisun or Arcadia. If you don't have a UVB meter, replacing it every 6-8 months is recommended. Moving the tube closer will help also.
As suggested, using acidophiliz or trying to get some critical care to help with nutrition & food intake is optimal. I am glad you already have acidophiliz, too. Is it dairy free?
Did you decide to get an x-ray too?

Let us know how he is doing!

Tracie

 

[Namipulla]

Hello,

yeah, the around 80 degrees at night has been a problem since I have to order cheramic heater online and wait for it to arrive. :/ Now it's around 73 degrees at night.

I thought there was a research of Reptisun and Arcadia that their UVB emission doesn't decrease that easily and they should last a year? Anyway, I replace them in the early spring when my beardies wake up from their brumation. So part of the year the tubes are not on as my babies sleep. But I'm ordering the new tubes now. I'll try changing his setup so that the UV tube is inside the tank. I have the hangers/sockets for it, anyway. Isn't there the issue that the UV tube should not be on their eye level? I need to somehow lower his basking spot.

I've seen Critical Care in a national netshop. I'm considering to buy it, too, if he doesn't start eating again soon. The acidophiluz (or maybe it's called probiotics, I don't know the exact term) is a powder made originally for dogs and cats, especially planned to help the stomach cope with antibiotic treatment or changes in a diet. It's made of kelp and pectin. No dairy in it.

We usually have all the necessary medicine etc. available but the health care of reptiles is not that professional yet here (in Finland). For a long time we had only one professional reptile vet in the whole country, though some vets knew how to handle common problems such as egg binding or parasites but no blood samples or such. Now we have another very professional reptile vet but he lives 130 miles from me. I've called him but it was kinda hard to say what was wrong because he couldn't see the patient. I'll ask for the x-ray if I need to take my boy back to the vet. It's always a great stress for them so if I can get the treatment by the phone all the better.

Anyway, thanks for your help again! I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I hope you get your ceramic heater soon!
The research does show that the emissions can last for up to a year. A lot of us like to be proactive & replace before then to be sure it is maximum effectiveness on the UVB.
How long are the tubes not on, 4 or so months? That increases the life of the bulbs so I would say that you are safe on your tubes then for emissions. I think a more direct light from inside of the tank would help, too.
Let us know how mounting it goes. Yes, you don't want the light to be at eye level, mounted on the back of the tank so it glares into the eyes. It needs to be directly overhead for best exposure & safety.
That is fine to use the acidophiliz for dogs & cats, since it is dairy free.
I can imagine having a hard time finding things in Finland!
If you do decide to get x-rays & can't get to the reptile vet you could always go to a regular vet just to get x-rays if you wanted to see bone density.
How is he doing today?

Tracie

 

[traceyb73]

Hello,

yeah, the around 80 degrees at night has been a problem since I have to order cheramic heater online and wait for it to arrive. :/ Now it's around 73 degrees at night.

I thought there was a research of Reptisun and Arcadia that their UVB emission doesn't decrease that easily and they should last a year? Anyway, I replace them in the early spring when my beardies wake up from their brumation. So part of the year the tubes are not on as my babies sleep. But I'm ordering the new tubes now. I'll try changing his setup so that the UV tube is inside the tank. I have the hangers/sockets for it, anyway. Isn't there the issue that the UV tube should not be on their eye level? I need to somehow lower his basking spot.

I've seen Critical Care in a national netshop. I'm considering to buy it, too, if he doesn't start eating again soon. The acidophiluz (or maybe it's called probiotics, I don't know the exact term) is a powder made originally for dogs and cats, especially planned to help the stomach cope with antibiotic treatment or changes in a diet. It's made of kelp and pectin. No dairy in it.

We usually have all the necessary medicine etc. available but the health care of reptiles is not that professional yet here (in Finland). For a long time we had only one professional reptile vet in the whole country, though some vets knew how to handle common problems such as egg binding or parasites but no blood samples or such. Now we have another very professional reptile vet but he lives 130 miles from me. I've called him but it was kinda hard to say what was wrong because he couldn't see the patient. I'll ask for the x-ray if I need to take my boy back to the vet. It's always a great stress for them so if I can get the treatment by the phone all the better.

Anyway, thanks for your help again! I'll let you know how it goes.

First, I do apologize for not replying sooner. I had a message typed up and I thought I hit send...I must have hit something else because it never showed up here. I'm so sorry!

How is your little guy doing?

One thing I was thinking was when my beardie had her RI, she did blow bubbles out of her nose every once in a while. It completely freaked me out! I feel so blessed to have found the amazing people on this site.

I'm so glad you were able to order a CHE, they help alot, and I personally have used mine alot when my beardie has had her RI issues. I use it in the winter too. I am in the Northern US and it gets quite cold here so I use it in the winter just to make sure she stays above 65.

The way I personally have my UV set up is, I have the mount (for the light) immediately under the lip of the (top of the) tank. I have what they call a "40 breeder" though, which means the top of the tank isn't as high on the sides (so the bottom is the tank is wider and longer) I hope that makes sense. If you have a problem with hanging the mount, you can just use a strip of velco. That's what I personally used with mine and it's works well. I've used the tape measure and made sure that her basking spot is about 8 inches from the UV bulb. When I first got her I had my UV on top of the (mesh like) lid too. Once I moved it inside it seemed to perk her up a bit. Every once in a while when she is trying to get my attention, she will get up on her back legs and jump as high as she can to "attack" her UV light. LOL It is SO funny to watch and when I say a firm NO, she stops for half a second then goes back at it again. She is such a ham! Fortunately the UV doesn't get hot enough to burn them. THANK GOD!! :lol:

I change my UV every 4-6 months, BUT my little girl has had an issue with laying eggs (every month since August when she was only 15 months old). I am in the process of getting her spayed (within in the next month...she has her preop testing on March 7th) but because of this, her little body has never given her the chance to brumate, so like Tracie said, that makes a difference that you don't use it for a good portion of the year.

Alot of the medications, etc they use for beardies are actually for other animals. Like the Critical Care, for example. The first time the vet gave it to me I read the package and it said that it is for rabbits and other small mammals. And again, since mine has had so many issues (this egg laying has really messed her up), I keep it on hand just incase I need it. It's much more expensive getting it from the vet than it is if you can get it online. Have you tried beardeddragon.co? They have so much stuff and it's SO much cheaper! Hopefully they deliver to you and at a decent rate!

One thing with the acidopholiz (I always spell it wrong. lol) is it usually needs to be kept in the refrigerator. I keeps it active longer. It is a probiotic, yes. I don't know if they have different flavors, but it sounds like we probably have the same one. It is the color of cranberry juice. My Zoey LOVES the taste of that stuff! I put it on her nose and she can't drink it fast enough. :lol:

Like Tracie said, even if you could go to a regular vet and ask them to do an x-ray. All they do to keep a beardie still during the x-ray is put them in a box so it's dark and they stay still. I've had a couple done with mine (to see how many eggs were in her belly) and it was real quick and she was a good little patient. With dogs or cats they sometimes have to put them to sleep to keep them still. It is so difficult to find a vet who sees reptiles AND knows what they are doing! 130 miles is quite a trip. Mine however loves the car. I put her under my hoodie while I drive (making sure the seat belt doesn't go across her body) and she sticks her head out, watching every single thing. lol I love it when I will be stopped at a light and someone will pull up in the lane next me and look over to see a lizard head sticking out of my shirt. LOL The looks on their faces are priceless!!! She loves the car so much that sometimes I will take her with me just to get her out of the house. Yes, I'm one of those. :roll: It's not the easiest thing in the world to drive like this and I'm not recommending it, but you can also use a shoe box (with holes in it for air) for traveling. Just make sure it's in a stable position so it doesn't slide around and/or fall on the floor.

You said you have 2 beardies right? Is your other showing any signs of being ill too? I sure hope not...that's all you need!

When you get a second, please let us know how your little boy has been doing. We are all thinking about you.

Take care, Tracey

 

[CaveJohnson]

Sounds like an RI, but also I am used to looking for this kind of stuff in ball pythons.

 

[Namipulla]

Hello again,

things have taken up a positive turn. For two days now my boy has been acting pretty normal, and I mean "beardie male + spring normal". He's literally climbing up the walls and running around like a madman. There was also a poo issue, because he ran over it and got it all over himself, so I had to wash him, lol. So I don't know what happened but it looks like he's starting his normal spring. He ate yesterday a bit and today a bit more. Not as much as he should but it's a good start. He seemed to have slight stomach issues when he ate but nothing too serious. So things are looking up. I've given acidophilus and vitamin B, nothing more. Today I changed his setup so that the UV tube is inside. Was quite a task I must say. We'll see if it has any effect. My boy has a bad habit of jumping on things, like Tracey's beardie, so I have to keep an eye on him to make sure he can't reach the tube or the basking spot which I had to place inside, too. He has literally no self-preservation during spring.

My female is in a different room and they have not been in direct contact so I don't think she is going to fall ill. I'm pretty certain now that it's not RI but more likely about his stomach. It's been now 3-4 days without those fits. If they return, I'll try this other stomach med which is milder than Antepsin.

Thank you all for your advice! I knew about the acidophilus, I keep it in the fridge until it expires (and then throw away, naturally). I also keep my multivitamin in the fridge since it's been shown to lose it's effect if kept in the room temperature. I've kept reptiles for 20 years and beardies for 10 so I'm pretty well educated already but you can never know everything. It seems I always get these mystery cases. Wish I once had a text book example of an illness in my hands. Or better yet, no sick beardies at all!

Edit: About the vet. I take my reptiles to vet when necessary but sometimes it's really frustrating when you yourself know more than the vet. My beardies have always stressed enormously about any changes in the environment (my late male only got used to it after I moved the 5th time) so I don't want to take them to somewhere only to hear that "Yeah, your pet could have this or that and that'll be 100 euros, thank you" and then possibly have a more sick beardie to bring back home because of the stress. X-rays and those kind of things every vet can do, of course. Some of the meds I've had my mom prescibe - she's a doctor - and then I just called a vet for dosing. I use a styrofoam icebag and put a warm water bottle in it if I have to take my reptiles somewhere. Luckily our houses here in Finland are very warm, always at least 68-70 degrees, but during winter you can't take a reptile outside without a warm bag because it's really freezing.