Head low...?

[drstevo]

Dear all,

~My BD Deano has been acting rather strange in the last two days. He lays under his basking spot with his head flat on his rock or when he is in the cooler area its the same behaviour. He also seems to move with his belly on the ground. I can't think of anything that has changed recently to have caused it other than him starting to shed some scales from the top of his head...? He is eating ok (ate around 17 crickets and 10 morioworms today in 10 mins whilst I also give him cabbage, carrot finely chopped, peas) and when eating or chasing feeders he acts completely normal. He has been less active in the bath tub though and does not swim around as much. Even when he climbs on my arm his head is down. He is housed alone. Does anyone have any ideas as to why it has changed all of a sudden? I'm worried as my local VET practice closes at weekends.

Age- approx. 9.5 months
Length- 16.5''
VIV- 3x2x2
Substrate- Linoleum (initially had tile but didn't have anywhere temporary to house him when making it permanent and all sorts of gunk got between the tiles).
UVB- Arcadia 12% d3 30'' (Initially reptisun 24'' but I exchanged for the larger Arcadia one as it gave more coverage).
Temps- basking 110f, ambient 83f, cool end 80f
Basking bulb- 60w (not sure of the make but came with viv).

I leave lights on 12 hours per day from around 10am-10pm, regular baths once per day to which regular bowel movements occur. Fecal test is sent off and awaiting results. I've had him 2 months and I got him from someone who didn't really have a clue and nursed him back to health.
I supplement every other feed with calcium and d3 whilst supplement with multivitamin at least twice per week.

I'm not sure whether this is health or behaviour or ER so posting here.
Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Kind regards,
Stevo.

 

[Snarf]

Everything sounds good with the lighting and such, though in Summer don't be scared to give maybe a few hours more through the day (though this is unlikely to be affecting his health).

Silly question, but since you mention his shedding, has he entirely shed? Not any parts left? Is there any other behaviour other than the less active behaviour? Sleeping, his eating different (even if he's still eating a lot), any pictures?

 

[drstevo]

Everything sounds good with the lighting and such, though in Summer don't be scared to give maybe a few hours more through the day (though this is unlikely to be affecting his health).

Silly question, but since you mention his shedding, has he entirely shed? Not any parts left? Is there any other behaviour other than the less active behaviour? Sleeping, his eating different (even if he's still eating a lot), any pictures?

Thanks for your reply,
I would also like to mention the temps are taken with an infared temp gun. He is only starting to shed the top part of his head. It's not come off yet. I introduced him to morio worms about a week and a half ago... gradually. Do you think 10am is too late to put on his lights...? I guessed in captivity they have no sense of time. He's just more lethargic even when I pick him up he used to run about but now seems content just to sit on my arm and still with head down. The darkness of his beard fluctuates during the day, never inflated nor completely black. Sometimes a little grey. Could it be onset of brumation...even though he's still eating a lot? I will get photos up tomorrow as he's asleep now. Sleeping seems normal but he did poop during the night and moved to another spot in his viv. Worried for the little guy :?

regards,
Stevo.

 

[Snarf]

(I apologise in advance, I'm trying to do this with a splitting headache - not the smartest move)

It's not entirely usual for a bearded dragon to go into Brumation at his age (though by all means very little is impossible with these guys! As always if you're concerned, heck even if you feel sure it's brumation, always get the vet to confirm it first before you play around with temperatures and food).

Some bearded dragons can get a little more lethargic/less interested when it comes to an uncomfortable/uneasy shed, so this could be a possible cause.

It's not as much 10.00 being too early but that, for example, I have mine on 14 hours through Summer seasons and closer to 10-12 through the Winter, just to replicate the idea that during seasons the sun is longer/shorter out and about. As for the morio worms, I know mines loves them and they are a good softer shell worm, if he's eating them and not refusing food then that is no bad thing.

The initial checklist I tend to go by:-

- ensure not losing weight
- ensure toileting regularly
- baths are luke warm
- feeding on a good diet
- temperatures are correct and there is ample UV (remember to change this every 6 months, as the UV will knacker even though the actual light will be operational)
- that the eyes are bright, no discharge from eyes/nose
- that their mouths aren't gaping open
- faeces are healthy and nothing such as undigested food or anything possible to be a parasite



Sometimes they can go through small spurts of more sporadic behaviour, the main thing is to keep an eye on him, ensure that he's not showing signs of illness and if it continues to get him a little check.

 

[drstevo]

The initial checklist I tend to go by:-

- ensure not losing weight- gaining weight
- ensure toileting regularly - everyday
- baths are luke warm- I try to keep them around 30 Celsius
- feeding on a good diet- I believe so
- temperatures are correct and there is ample UV (remember to change this every 6 months, as the UV will knacker even though the actual light will be operational)- tube is 2 months old
- that the eyes are bright, no discharge from eyes/nose- no discharge although had a problem a few weeks ago with him keeping closed one eye, moved tube higher and seemed to have resolved it. I have noticed him in the odd occasion to close the same eye.
- that their mouths aren't gaping open- very rarely
- faeces are healthy and nothing such as undigested food or anything possible to be a parasite- there have been some undigested food in stools. a small amount recently.

 

[diamc]

Moved here from General Discussion forum as it seemed to fit into this category better.

Hi, I'm checking this out as you requested. My first thought is the temperatures as 110 seems a little high for a 9 month old. You might want to try lowering them just a little. How close are you holding the temp gun when you check the temps? Does he spend most of his time in the basking spot or is he tending to only go there for a short time and then move either further down or retreat to the cool side?

Is the Arcadia bulb a T5 (high output) bulb? What is the distance of it now? How long have you had the 30" Arcadia bulb? Is there any way that he can escape the UVB if he prefers to?

How long would you say he has been showing this behavior of walking with his head down and moving along with his belly on the ground? Did you check to see if he might be getting ready to shed his belly or chest?

I noticed that you're feeding morio worms (mealworms), those are a little hard to digest due to their chitin shell and since you're seeing some undigested food in the stools, you might want to consider cutting back on the mealworms or even try switching to a soft worm like silkworms, hornworms, butterworms since those are easier to digest. Superworms actually have a little higher nutritional value than mealworms. You also might want to think about feeding different veggies as cabbage, carrots and peas aren't really good to feed daily. In case you haven't seen this, here's a site that shows the best foods to feed: http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html It's important that they get good staple greens (in green print) like collards, escarole, endive, mustard & turnip greens. Squash is also very good for them and most really like it.

How often are you bathing him? If only once a wk, I would recommend increasing it to 3 to 4 times a wk to help with the shedding and in case he is getting too warm.

Please let me know if any of this is helpful and posting pics of him in his tank would be a good idea.

 

[diamc]

One more thing I just thought of, how long have you had the lineoleum in his tank? Is it slippery for him? I made the mistake once of getting ceramic slate tiles and my female had trouble walking on it so she moved along with her belly on the ground. Once I changed it to slate tiles with roughness to it, she acted normal again.

Was there paper on the back of the lineoleum that you peeled off to stick it to the bottom of the tank?

 

[drstevo]

Moved here from General Discussion forum as it seemed to fit into this category better.

Hi, I'm checking this out as you requested. My first thought is the temperatures as 110 seems a little high for a 9 month old. You might want to try lowering them just a little. How close are you holding the temp gun when you check the temps? I hold the temp gun directly at the basking spotDoes he spend most of his time in the basking spot or is he tending to only go there for a short time and then move either further down or retreat to the cool side?

I hold the temp gun directly at the basking spot (rock). He did spend most of them time in the basking spot until this new behaviour started 2 days ago. E.g., noticed him laying on the viv floor on cool side last night which was odd. When he gets up I've to physically lift him now to basking spot or he wouldn't move. This morning, I had lights turned on 30 mins and he didn't move :? He lay at basking spot for around 2 hours with his head down and then moved to cooler end.

Is the Arcadia bulb a T5 (high output) bulb? What is the distance of it now? How long have you had the 30" Arcadia bulb? Is there any way that he can escape the UVB if he prefers to?

I believe its the T8 tube that I have. Its situated approx. 15-16'' above him. The bulb is 2 months old. I have built him a wooden hut but he does not seem to use it for shade.

How long would you say he has been showing this behavior of walking with his head down and moving along with his belly on the ground? Did you check to see if he might be getting ready to shed his belly or chest?

Definitely 2 days as I've been at home writing my thesis the past 2 months and he is in my room so I keep an eye on him. His belly does feel rather smooth and slippery for some reason...? Maybe just due to bath though.

I noticed that you're feeding morio worms (mealworms), those are a little hard to digest due to their chitin shell and since you're seeing some undigested food in the stools, you might want to consider cutting back on the mealworms or even try switching to a soft worm like silkworms, hornworms, butterworms since those are easier to digest. Superworms actually have a little higher nutritional value than mealworms.

In the Uk we call superworms 'Morios' due to their species or something. But what I feed him are not standard mealworms. There are segments of the superwoms in his poop I noticed yesterday. Any advice there?

You also might want to think about feeding different veggies as cabbage, carrots and peas aren't really good to feed daily. In case you haven't seen this, here's a site that shows the best foods to feed: http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html It's important that they get good staple greens (in green print) like collards, escarole, endive, mustard & turnip greens. Squash is also very good for them and most really like it.

How often are you bathing him? If only once a wk, I would recommend increasing it to 3 to 4 times a wk to help with the shedding and in case he is getting too warm.

I bathe him at least once per day.Although he does not seem to drink the water directly from the bath nor when I drop it on his head.

Please let me know if any of this is helpful and posting pics of him in his tank would be a good idea.

The lino is non-adhesive so no stickiness at all. I just cut it to measure for the viv. I had tiles but it was messy and I had no where to house him whilst making them permanent as some feeders and food and poop got stuck between them and was afraid of the toxicity of the 'grout' (Sp.?Not a trademan at all) to make it permanent. Should I try newspaper on top of lino to see as It is a bit slippery?

Thanks for your replies! Really means a lot. I will post photos up tomorrow to show you.


Kind regards,
Steve.

 

[sweetiepie9]

Diane, Morio worms are super worms where Steve lives, they're fine for him. I learned this from Nathan, they're not mealworms. So that's fine.

Steve, don't give him cabbage or lettuce, cabbage stops calcium from binding to their bones, so stop that.

I think his head shed is bugging him, they're very painful & tight for them. When he's in the bath, give it a bit cooler than normal & drop water on his head all the time he's in the bath, that will help soothe his head. Didi does the same thing & so does Rubio, they're both sensitive with head sheds, more than Lonzo & Leo. So that may just be it, as everything else sounds fine. You'll get the fecal test back, so you'll know if he's been carrying parasites. If that's the case & he needs meds, make sure you feed him before you give him the meds, it really helps his tummy.

I agree with Diane, 110F is a bit high for a juvie his age, you might want to get that down to 102F, see how he reacts to that. My dragons like it at 95 and not a bit higher, they'll endure 100F but then they run over to the cool side.

The linolium is fine as long as it's not slippery for him, much easier to clean. I still think it's that head shed, and the higher temps, but you'll know more when you get the fecal back.

Keep us all posted, Steve,
Deb

 

[diamc]

Yes Deb, I saw where Steve had written above that the morios are the same as supers over there. It does sound like he isn't digesting them properly though since there are pieces in his poop probably because he isn't basking enough. Hopefully that will change once he lowers the temps a little.

Steve, did you get a chance to check out the link I posted showing the best greens/veggies to feed? Most of us here use that list a lot. There are lots of greens on that list that are high in calcium and have a good nutritional value.

You could also use a soft toothbrush on his head while he's in his bath, most of them really like that.

If the linoleum seems slippery, you could try putting newspaper over it but it might not stay in place. There is a Duck brand non-adhesive shelf liner that is great if you wanted to give that a try over the linoleum to see if he walks better. I'm glad you didn't use the adhesive type linoleum, I just wanted to make sure.

 

[sweetiepie9]

Sorry Diane, didn't see that!

Hope all this helps Steve & that Deano feels better soon. I'm also hoping that his fecal is clean, but if it is parasites, which you've wondered before, at least you'll have a chance to clear that up.

Keep us posted,
Deb

 

[carlisv]

Have you changed anything about his surroundings lately? Moved stuff around in his viv, or changed something he sees every day? Some beardies go into full-on pout when their surroundings change. They lower their heads and look like they have no desire to live. Mine also do that when the barometric pressure changes significantly - they're great weather forecasters! But the chances are also good it's the shed. You might spritz water on his head a couple of times a day to keep it moist. That may improve his mood.

 

[diamc]

Yes, we're all hoping that it's an easy fix and that he will start acting like he was before. We all know how they like to worry us, right Deb?

 

[sweetiepie9]

Diane, a truer sentence was never uttered! Beardies can be such a worry when they're not acting "normal" as we see it. And Steve has only had Deano for 2 months.

Steve, I know how well you've been taking care of Deano since you got him. Rescued beardies are never easy, so I'm really hoping the temp & shedding are his issues right now. Please keep us informed!
Deb

 

[christina0]

Hey Stevo, sorry to hear Deano is causing you concern. For the last while my beardie Rango has been acting strange too so maybe its just our Irish weather ( at one point i thought it may be the onset of brumation too). My guy still eats his usual amount of locust and morios but seems a little less excited about his greens now. He's not as energetic anymore like he use to be but still is perfectly healthy and runs around when he wants to. He started to spend a lot more time in the cool end of the viv so i played around with spotlights and changed things around a bit. My basking area had gotten a little too warm for his liking, think it was around 110-108f ( i had two 40watt spots over the basking area) so i changed to a 40 watt spot and a 40watt clear household bulb which brought the basking area temps down to around 102f which brought him back to the basking area again where he would lounge round for hours, yesterday he spent most of the day there. Today temps had risen again so i woke up to find him on the cool side again. Try putting in a lower watt spotlight or raising the spotlight up a bit to reduce basking temps and see if it will work for your guy. Lately ive often had to pick my beardie up and put him under the basking lights or he would spend the day hiding under his komodo basking platform or on the cool end.The arcadia T8 seems to be the best, im also using the 30" tube in my viv. I have my beardies lights on a timer so they always come on at 7am and turn off at 8pm. About the undigested morios, my guy loves these and i had the same problem when i started to feed him those. I now feed him one at a time in his dish to make sure he chews them properly as at first he was so excited to get them he would eat them way too fast, sometimes more than one at a time, if he saw more in the dish while he was eating. I fed Rango more than 10 of these at the start and when i noticed some undigested i cut back to 3 or 4 every second day and gradually increased them after a while. Hope you can get things sorted.

Christina