Hasn't eaten right for 3 months - very strange habits

[Roxyrox]

I'll try to keep it short, I know there's so many variables. BTW I keep referring to Bub as he, but recently I'm finding he's looking to be a she. (not sure if it makes a difference)

Dragon is about 13" long nose to tail tip. I'd guess about 8 - 10 months old. I bought him at about 8", very skinny. For the first three months in my care I could actually feed the thing so much I'd have to limit him. He grew 5 " in that time, and would shed regularly.

About 3 months ago, right when it started to get cold at night in the garage (in California, high 40's low 60's), he stopped eating entirely one day. Just gave it up. Thats when he started to lose weight and show loose skin. Figures, he was enormous before that and I was sure he'd grow to a full 24"

I was worried, so I started mixing things up with his food and spying on him (he freezes when I'm around). Still no luck. Sometimes he would eat his collared / mustard greens, but just a bite. He used to eat two full leaves which are larger than he is.

Recently I found out how to make him eat. About an hour after lights out, I come to his cage and wake him up. The more intrusive I am the better because it wakes him up faster, so I usually poke at him and he jumps a bit. At that moment, if I feed him a superworm, he will eat it like he used to. He'll look at it, stand up, and chow down. If he's tired, he usually just eats one. If I startled him good enough to be totally awake, he can eat 5 full sized super worms. When he refuses to eat more (looks at it but doesnt react), he just goes to sleep right where he stood.

I gotta be honest, I feel I'm paying this thing more attention than most people would, but it's frustrating. I wanted to care for this thing until adult hood but if I can't get him to eat right I'm gonna have to pass him on to someone who can provide better care.

Anyway, if anyone has any idea what could be wrong, please let me know. As far as I know I can't rule brumation out until winter ends, and I'm not sure if it can go on like this for three more months.

Here's a little info:

Cage: 30" x 12" x 12"
UV (12 hrs): Reptisun 10.0 24" tube
Bask (12 hrs): About 95 degrees, 45 watt white bulb
Night light (24 hrs in fall / winter): 75 watt black light bulb
Feed: Collared / Mustard greens / Super worms
Gender: Female ?
Length: 13"
Age: Appx 9 months
Supplements: T-rex calcium / vit D (sparingly)
Substrate: travertine tile, bricks for basking
Water: Small bowl in cage
Bath: Weekly
Poop: Rarely

 

[SarahUK]

Can i please ask how you are measuring temps? The reason i ask is because stick on dials are reknowned on here for being very inaccurate, the most accurate is to use a digital thermometer or temp gun. If the temps are off (either far too low, which is the most likely in this circumstance IMO, or wayyy too high) that can cause your little buddy to be feeling under the weather.

Also beardies are thought to be a species that can actually see black bulbs which could be interfering with his sleep. If the temps are getting too low at night then a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) is the better option. It gives heat and no light.

Id like to add also that beardies need a minimum of 2 hours (someone please correct me if im wrong on the hours, iv seen people recommend 1 and 2 hours here in the past) to digest food under their basking bulb after feeding. If you are waking him up to give him food then he may not be getting that time and it could cause digestion issues.

Im really sorry if it sounds like im picking faults but its just things iv learnt from these boards. I hope you find the cause of the problem soon, we all want the best for your little one! *hugs*

 

[Roxyrox]

Can i please ask how you are measuring temps? The reason i ask is because stick on dials are reknowned on here for being very inaccurate, the most accurate is to use a digital thermometer or temp gun. If the temps are off (either far too low, which is the most likely in this circumstance IMO, or wayyy too high) that can cause your little buddy to be feeling under the weather.

Also beardies are thought to be a species that can actually see black bulbs which could be interfering with his sleep. If the temps are getting too low at night then a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) is the better option. It gives heat and no light.

Id like to add also that beardies need a minimum of 2 hours (someone please correct me if im wrong on the hours, iv seen people recommend 1 and 2 hours here in the past) to digest food under their basking bulb after feeding. If you are waking him up to give him food then he may not be getting that time and it could cause digestion issues.

Im really sorry if it sounds like im picking faults but its just things iv learnt from these boards. I hope you find the cause of the problem soon, we all want the best for your little one! *hugs*

Thx for the info SarahUK

Temps are monitored with a digital thermometer. It's not equipped with a probe, but it has a barometer on it. Yes, youre right about the mercury stick tube. It is at least 10 degrees lower than what the digi reads, but I know that so if in doubt I just move the digi around. I'm very careful to make sure the temps are correct in the cool, mid, and basking side.

I'll consider the ceramic heater, but I really don't think that bulb bugs him. As soon as the UV tube and basking light are turned off, she immediately finds a spot to sleep.

The issue is that it's not eating and is exhibiting very odd behavior which specifically includes only eating within a short period at night after lights out. I'm aware of the basking thing, so if he does accept food, I put the blacklight over him to make sure his temps are 85+. I can't imagine that he minds being warm.

I've read that female beardies during brumation will find themselves a spot to sleep, scratch at the floor, curl up, and wedge themselves in one spot. Thats precicely what Bub does immediately after lights out. Perhaps I need to stop feeding her all together and try weekly to offer food? Or change the substrate to washed sand so she can chill out "under ground" for a month?

 

[Roxyrox]

Can i please ask how you are measuring temps? The reason i ask is because stick on dials are reknowned on here for being very inaccurate, the most accurate is to use a digital thermometer or temp gun. If the temps are off (either far too low, which is the most likely in this circumstance IMO, or wayyy too high) that can cause your little buddy to be feeling under the weather.

Also beardies are thought to be a species that can actually see black bulbs which could be interfering with his sleep. If the temps are getting too low at night then a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) is the better option. It gives heat and no light.

Id like to add also that beardies need a minimum of 2 hours (someone please correct me if im wrong on the hours, iv seen people recommend 1 and 2 hours here in the past) to digest food under their basking bulb after feeding. If you are waking him up to give him food then he may not be getting that time and it could cause digestion issues.

Im really sorry if it sounds like im picking faults but its just things iv learnt from these boards. I hope you find the cause of the problem soon, we all want the best for your little one! *hugs*

BTW there's nothing wrong with picking faults. If we didn't, none of us would learn and our pets ultimately suffer. Any more advice is certainly welcome.

 

[diamc]

Sounds like this non-eating issue has been going on for quite a while. Have to taken a fecal to be checked for parasites?

The dimensions of the tank are about equal to a 20 gallon which is very small. I noticed that you're using a 45 watt bulb during the day but a 75 watt bulb at night? A basking temp of 95 is quite low and they need a minimum basking temp of 95 in order to be able to digest properly so you might want to consider using a slightly higher wattage and can even use a standard household light bulb for the basking bulb. Since your digital thermometer doesn't have a long wire & probe end, I'm not sure you're getting accurate readings.

I'm concerned about the way you're getting him to eat now. If the black light heats up to about 85 which is what the reading is that you mentioned, it's not allowing him to digest the supers and that could cause them to rot in his belly. Since supers have a hard shell, it makes them even harder to digest than other worms. Have you considered ordering silkworms, butterworms or hornworms? They all contain more moisture than the supers, are easier to digest so it makes pooping much easier too. She might welcome a change in feeders and may be tired of supers. Also, waking her up from a sound sleep to force her to eat sounds very stressful for her which can't be doing her any good. I'm being honest, I know I wouldn't want to be woken up that way and you probably wouldn't either.

Since she's not eating much, she's not getting the supplements she needs. A beardie under 1 yr old should be getting calcium with D3 but phosphorus-free 5 days a wk and vitamins the other 2 days a wk.Have you tried mixing the supplements in some water or diluted juice to see if she will lick it off her nose? Another way to get it into her would be to mix it in squash, green bean or pea baby food with a little chicken or turkey baby food for protein and diluted with a little water to thin it. Increasing the baths to 3 to 4 times a wk would also be a good idea.

How long is she basking during the day or is she avoiding the basking area and wanting to lay on the cool side instead?

 

[Roxyrox]

I'll look into getting a new tank. He has plenty of stuff to do in there, climb bricks, climb a branch, run around on the tile...I see hes growing out of it tho

I use the 45 watt house bulb (white powdered) in a ceramic enclosure. I position it on one side above a brick, so he's elevated closer to it and the ubv. 95 degrees is what it is when it's cold outside. If its 70 degrees outside, it'll be 105 in the cage.

The 75 watt light is on 24/7 because the cold side would remain the outside temp of 60 degrees, afaik thats too low.

Cage is in the garage so I compare car thermometer to the digi, it's really close.

I've considered the worm thing but if he's not eating anything I give him, I don't think bulk ordering worms will change its mind.

I'm concerned about the way I feed it right now too, but it won't eat any other way. Oddly enough it doesn't look sick, it's pretty big, and can pancake out pretty wide, but it just sits in the same spot all day. I'm going to stop feeding it that way, but this also means it won't eat entirely and I didn't want to resort to that.

 

[diamc]

That's good that he has some options of things to do in his tank.

When we have a change of seasons, it's very common to have to change the wattage in their tanks whether they are in the house or in a garage, so you might need to go to a higher wattage basking bulb now that the temps are cooler. You mentioned that the not eating and other habits changed as the temps got cooler? If so, sounds like he isn't warm enough now. Is the garage heated? If not, is there any way that you can move the tank in the house?

Actually, the car thermometer might give you an estimate of the tank temp but not what the actual basking temp is, seems like you're getting the ambient temp instead. You would need to either use an infrared temp gun and test the basking log with it 2" from that spot or lay a probe end of a digital thermometer right on the basking spot for about 45 min in order to get the exact temp.

As far as the worms go, you could just order a small amount. A change in feeders can really spark their appetites. Is he laying in the basking spot all day or is he staying on the cool side instead?

Have you considered giving baby food with the supplements in it as I suggested? That just might give him the boost he needs.

 

[vickson420]

Hello
First let me say that you have been given some excellent advice here.I agree the biggest issue here is going to be the temps.You are housing him in what appears to be a fairly cold gargae with a pretty low basking area.At minimum this is going to cause him to begin a brumation cycle and since he isnt a full grown adult I wouldnt recommend allowing this.I think you might want to consider moving him indoors during the colder months at least.Do you mind if I ask,why is he in the gargae anyway? Also please do not feed after lights out,this will certainly cause impaction and he can become gravely ill.

 

[Roxyrox]

Hello
First let me say that you have been given some excellent advice here.I agree the biggest issue here is going to be the temps.You are housing him in what appears to be a fairly cold gargae with a pretty low basking area.At minimum this is going to cause him to begin a brumation cycle and since he isnt a full grown adult I wouldnt recommend allowing this.I think you might want to consider moving him indoors during the colder months at least.Do you mind if I ask,why is he in the gargae anyway? Also please do not feed after lights out,this will certainly cause impaction and he can become gravel ill.

Hey there,

Yes I agree, and on top of that all this advice is news to me.

He's in the garage because I don't own the house, and the owner does not allow reptiles inside (they smell sometimes if I don't get to the cage quickly after a mess). It's just not an option.

I wasn't aware that a brumation cycle could be forced. As far as I knew, the lower temps were natural and expected during fall and winter. I've replaced the 45 watt with a 90 watt bulb to up the temps +100 degrees.

No more feeding after lights out.

So as far as I understand, I need to do the following to get this guy up and running:

--buy a 55 gallon tank

--try to feed him apricot baby food with vitamins

--vitamins in water

--change lighting to higher wattage

--buy ceramic heater instead of blacklight

--absolutely no feeding after lights out, and at least 2 hrs before they go out.

I appreciate all the feedback here. I've been cycling through ideas, moving him closer to the ubv, further away, changing wattage, changing environment, changing the cage around, no real luck but i'll try all the advice in one shot.

He's been in the same spot since christmas. ":-( :-( :-( " I feel like a bad owner

 

[Roxyrox]

Quick question, to keep the tank warmer during these months, would it be advisable to cover 1/2 of the metal mesh cage lid with a towel or something to retain heat throughout?

 

[vickson420]

You can use a towel yes but I think adding a CE would probably work much better. Is there any way ar all you could request that only for the colder months he be allowed inside? Aside from the temps beardies do really require human interaction and they like being around people.Maybe you could just smeak him into your bedroom without the LL catching on?
Make sure he can get to within 6-8 inches od the reptisun.Also possibly put a towel on the bottom of the tank to hold the heat a little better.
Brumation can be forced yes and not only temps but changes in humidity level,basic light(darker shorter days)all can jumpstart this early on.

 

[Roxyrox]

You can use a towel yes but I think adding a CE would probably work much better. Is there any way ar all you could request that only for the colder months he be allowed inside? Aside from the temps beardies do really require human interaction and they like being around people.Maybe you could just smeak him into your bedroom without the LL catching on?
Make sure he can get to within 6-8 inches od the reptisun.Also possibly put a towel on the bottom of the tank to hold the heat a little better.
Brumation can be forced yes and not only temps but changes in humidity level,basic light(darker shorter days)all can jumpstart this early on.

In the house isn't an option. Outside would be, so the garage is the next best. It's California, it'll never get dangerously cold. I just need to crank up the wattage. If it goes in my room, the cat will try to eat it all night. The only time it's ever shown anger is towards that cat.

I tried to feed him apricot baby food, he licks it off my finger, thats it.

The light cycle has always been the same, 12 hrs on 12 hrs off.

 

[Denise Bushnell (RIP)]

If you put the tank in your bedroom, and buy a screened lid for over the top of it, the cat won't be able to get to him to annoy him. The cat may try for a couple of nights, but they give up pretty quickly when they find that it doesn't work. I've got three beardies, each in their own tank, and four cats, and while they were a novelty at first, now that the cats have found out that they can't get to them, they pretty much ignore them entirely now.

As far as your not being able to keep him in the house, how would your landlord know, unless he or she comes in and snoops around when you aren't at home, especially if the tank is in your room? If his tank is kept clean, and you remove his waste every day, as soon as possible after finding it, there shouldn't be any noticable odor from his tank. You could also get a bottle of Nature's Miracle Stain and Odor Remover at your local Pet Store, and wipe the area where he's gone with that, which will keep the tank from smelling. Your cat's litter pan will smell much worse than your beardie's tank ever could, if you keep it clean!

I really think that a lot of the problems that you're having with this little guy can be fixed just by putting him somewhere in the house, other than in the garage. Unlike most other reptiles, beardies are social creatures, and they thrive on the love and attention that they get from spending time with their owners. Beardies do best when their tanks are placed in a busy area of the house, where there is lots of human activity. By keeping him in the garage, you aren't providing human companionship for him, and while he may become physically healthy for you eventually, I doubt if he will ever be mentally healthy, or very happy, if he's denied this human contact with you. Also, you're gypping yourself out of a wonderful relationship with him, if you continue to keep him in the garage. He needs to be with you, not stuck out in the garage by himself all the time.

If I were you, I would approach your landlord again, and explain the health problems that you're having with him, because of having to keep him in the garage. Perhaps they might reconsider, especially if you can show them that there will be no odor in the house because of his tank. If they allow you to have a cat, which uses a litter pan, that smell is far worse than the once daily (if that) smell of a teaspoonful of beardie waste. It can't hurt to explain the circumstances and ask, in any case.

Personally, if you can't move him into the house, then my advice to you woule be, if you care about him at all, then re-home him with someone who can keep him indoors and give him the daily companionship that he needs. You want not only a healthy beardie, but a happy beardie as well, and I doubt that you're ever going to have the latter if you continue to keep him out in the garage!

 

[Denise Bushnell (RIP)]

DOUBLE POST REMOVED BY MODERATOR

 

[diamc]

I'm not sure where the "apricot" baby food came from. This is what I had said:

Since she's not eating much, she's not getting the supplements she needs. A beardie under 1 yr old should be getting calcium with D3 but phosphorus-free 5 days a wk and vitamins the other 2 days a wk.Have you tried mixing the supplements in some water or diluted juice to see if she will lick it off her nose? Another way to get it into her would be to mix it in squash, green bean or pea baby food with a little chicken or turkey baby food for protein and diluted with a little water to thin it. Increasing the baths to 3 to 4 times a wk would also be a good idea.

I also wanted to mention that going from a 45 watt bulb to a 90 watt is a big jump. If you were getting a temp of 95 with the 45 watt, the temps must be a lot higher now. Did you double check them? What are the basking & cool side temps now?

How old is the Repti-Sun bulb? Have you ever had his fecal checked for parasites? Does he like being held? How is he acting now that you increased his tank temps?