Has anyone ever had to deal with this before?

[nordica]

Hey guys, so I'm wondering if anyone has ever had a problem with their beardie's front limbs swelling up...? Here's the story:

We took our five year old beardie, Knuckes, into the Vet yesterday for fairly advance swelling in her front limbs. It happened REALLY fast. She went from being alert and normal (although she'd slowed down a bit and wasn't eating as much, though we attributed that to her normal brumation period) to not moving at all, not eating at all, and not wanting her front limbs handled, all in about a week. She even started holding her front limbs away from her body at a perpendicular angle when she sleeps. We were fearing MBD or gout (gout because she won't even TOUCH a vegetable no matter what we do, and only eats things that move, the stubborn little girl) but were confused because of how fast it came on.

Anyway, I took her in yesterday morning after a little warm water soak (hoping to get some poop for them to do a fecal float, which I didn't). She oddly had actually perked right up. The Dr., upon initial examination, said that she looked healthy, and that there was nothing amiss with the care we give her, although he mentioned that he wished she would eat her greens. He kept her overnight to take some X-rays, order a full blood panel, and to try his hand at getting some poop from her.

I talked to him last night, and he said that the X-rays came back perfectly normal, and that her bone density was fine. He said that the blood tests results wouldn't be in until today. She wouldn't eat for them, and wouldn't poop either, but the X-ray showed that there's nothing in her GI tract to poop out anyway. The last time she ate was Friday, and that was two pinkies, which she gets as infrequent treats. He inserted a small needle into one of her swollen limbs and took a small amount of the fluid build-up. When he looked at it under a microscope though, it wasn't the kind of cells you'd see in an infected area. It was just a few normal cells and a lot of fluid.

After telling me all of this, he went on to explain that it could be something as serious as heart failure, as that's typically one cause of edema in the limbs, but that he won't know anything for sure until the blood tests come back. He said he's actually so far stumped on this one, as is the other DVM.

I'm starting to wonder though if the swelling is nothing more that a result of inactivity, you know, like how our feet swell on long car of plane rides? When we let her free-roam a week or two ago, she was walking perfectly fine, with her body and tail held high off of the ground, and seemed much more... I don't know... interactive. And she DID perk right up when I took her for the car ride to the vet, not to mention her crawling all over the examination table. Perhaps... maybe... she's just, bored. Hell if I know... I'm no Vet. :?

Sorry I don't have any pictures of it; she's still with the Vet. Just imagine an otherwise healthy-looking beardie... with really large "Popeye forearms".

Thanks so much for any advice and experience that you can share with me!

 

[nordica]

Okay, here's an update on Knuckles:

First off, the Vet has no idea what's going on with her front limbs; he's never seen a case that's presented like this. Her X-rays showed that her bone density is great, and the problem isn't skeletal. Her blood work came back relatively normal; her calciumhosphorus levels are fine, though she's got a slightly elevated white blood cell count, and her protein levels are slightly high (which was to be expected, as she REFUSES to eat her salads, and only eats her creepy crawly bits).

She's going to be on antibiotics and a hydrating solution (cuz the antibiotics can be rough on her body) that have to be injected every three days, for a total of three weeks. We were also given a nutritional food called "Omni-Care" that we can force feed to her if she needs it. The Vet gave her some this morning, and again when I came to pick her up so I could see how it's done. I was also shown how to inject her medicine, and watched as he gave her the first dose of everything.

I got her home, and set her up in the open window sill to get some yummy natural sunlight. She started showing some interest in what was going on around her, so I wanted to see if she would finally eat something. Not only did she eat, but she pooped a little too, though there wasn't much to it. I left her there for a little while til she she got nice and toasty, then brought her to the couch so she could chill with me. She started getting really active and walking around all over the place, so I just set her on the ground for some free-roam time. She seemed to love it, as she was crawling all over the place. When I found her inside the heater though (it's never turned on), I brought her outside for some more natural sunlight, while I read for a little bit.

Anyway, she's back in her enclosure, flattened out and quiet like she usually is at this time. Hopefully, she'll continue doing better as the days and weeks go by. I'll be sure to keep everyone updated.

 

[nordica]

*bump*

 

[nordica]

So an update on Kitteh:

After she woke up yesterday, I gave her some time to warm herself, then gave her another warm water soak. She was squirming around like she usually does, then took a much-praised poop. After her bath, I once again placed her in a sunny open window sill to get some more natural sunlight. She ate once more, but seemed to only really respond to "princess feeding"... me feeding her superworms one at a time with tongs. *facepalm* We let her free roam a bit more throughout the day, then returned her to her enclosure. She seemed a lot more interactive. I had the apartment to myself for a few hours last night, so right before her lights went out, I picked her up, took her with me to the couch, and just let her lay on my chest with my hand over her, while thinking warm, happy, hippie, healing thoughts. I kept her there for about an hour or two, during which time, she fell asleep for a bit.

This morning, she moved of her own accord and pulled herself up to her basking spot. My brother called me, and invited me to a local coffee shop for some much-needed catch-up time. As it was getting warm and sunny out, I took Kitteh with me on the short 10 block walk there. We stayed for a couple hours, sitting outside, with Kitteh getting a chance to soak up some more natural sunlight, all the while getting quite a bit of attention from curious pedestrians. She did great on the walk there, great on the walk back; she's always been fantastic out in public.

She's now back in her enclosure, flattened out on the rock that sits beneath her basking branch; it's her favorite "flopping" place.

So I have a theory...

A friend of mine had an iguana once, that presented with the exact same symptoms; swollen limbs, lack of appetite, lack of interaction, moody. She ended up taking him outside for a LOT of natural sunlight, gave him a LOT of warm baths, forced him to move around, and showered him with gratuitous amounts of love and attention. The situation righted itself. So I'm wondering... could this be nothing more than a physical manifestation of depression? While I'm not sure that their psyche goes that deep, I can't help but think that I may be on to something, especially since the Vet has no clue whatsoever as to what's going on with our little girl. What does everyone else think?

I'm hoping between the antibiotics and sheer amount of love and attention I'm giving her, she'll get better. *fingers crossed*

 

[nordica]

So here are a few pics of our "baby" girl, Kitteh...


Giving me the stink-eye because we had just given her her second round of injections. You can see the slight swelling in her left forearm:

It's her right forearm though that's taken the brunt of the swelling:

You can see how distended her poor right arm and hand is:

Looking down her nose at me, showing me her displeasure:

 

[Deemac6]

I'm sorry that no one is responding to you, I have no idea whats going on but I really hope you find out soon, i'm bumping and praying someone answers you with some advice!

 

[nordica]

Thank you so much. I'll admit, I was getting frustrated and more than a little annoyed that, while my post had been viewed dozens of times, no one was speaking up with either advice, or simple well-wishings. I have been getting more positive feed-back on *non-beardie* forums, and I find that a little disheartening.

 

[Jiffy]

Hi. I havent seen anything like this before either. I am sorry that no one has been responding to your posts. I feel a lot of it is, that people dont know what this is or what to do, so they just dont say anything.
It almost looks like there is some shed around that arm where it is swollen. Is she getting ready to shed there?
I have also heard of gout causing swelling in the limbs, but I dont know anything more than that. Hope that your beardie is feeling better, and maybe someone can chime in and help.

 

[Goonie]

[Moved from Health to Beardie ER (for more exposure)]

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I'm really sorry that noone had answered your questions or provided you with possibilities as to why your beardie's arms are swollen.

Why did the vet prescribe antibiotics for Knuckes if he didn't know what was wrong with her? It's really not recommended to give beardies any medication, especially antibiotics, if there wasn't an obvious need for it. Was it because of the slightly elevated white blood cell count??

 

[spurlee01]

I'm no expert but thought I would mention that Seraptese can be used to treat swelling in reptiles. It is a natural substance found in silkworms and is also sold here. http://www.bug-de-lite.com/Products%20Page.html
There are several articles on this page about Seraptese.

 

[MissT]

As Sara said, serapeptese is good for swelling and also helps relieve pain. Iv never seen swelling like this other than with difficult shedding or a reaction to injections. I have, as jennifer mentioned, heArd of swelling due to gout- I think that has somethig to do with salad va protein intake but I am not sure. I am also wondering why she is on antibiotics if the vet is not sure what is wrong. Her WBC could be raised for all sorts of reasons, not just infection. Again, i can't offer much more on this but hope your little girl is feeling better soon!
Hugs!
T

 

[diamc]

Hi, sorry to hear about your beardie. Do you know if the vet tested her uric acid level? That would help rule out gout. Pinkies contain a lot of fat and if she isn't eating her greens, that combination isn't good. Did he do an ultra sound to check on her kidneys?

I noticed the area above her eyes is swollen too, especially in the 2nd picture. Are both eyes like that?

I'm confused too as to why the antibiotic injections were prescribed. Do you know the name of it? Did he mention giving her probiotics to help restore her good gut flora that antibiotics destroy?

 

[1976dragonmom]

Is it really expensive to go to the vet for your Dragons? I rescued a Bearded Dragon and she doesn't look "right". (and I wish I knew how to post pictures so I can share my problem and get some advice.) I know that natural sunlight is best for her, but I live in Washington, and right now the tempurature is slowly dropping and there is little sun. The previous owners of my Dragon had either stepped on her at one time or kept her in the dark. She lays very flat, but after reading your post, I guess this is normal? I only wish my Dragon had swollen limbs,, because all four legs can barely move. She hates her greens, too (like any child would), and I have to force feed her mealworms. Keep posting, everyone,, I'm learning alot for a new-dragon-owner-falling in love-with a possible-dying-dragon.

 

[Khammy87]

If I had to guess, I would have to say this sounds more like a case of heart problems; particularly right-sided. I don't know if you have access to a veterinarian with ultrasound that could possibly take a look at your beardie's heart. Also, while they are doing an echocardiogram, you may want them to take a peak at his kidneys. When you start with heart failure, you risk other end organ failures also. Definately something I would consider getting another opinion on. Does your beardie's abdomen appear distended also>

In the mean time, it wouldn't be a bad idea to kind of massage his legs, sometimes you can help increase circulation in the fore-limbs this way and relieve some of the pressure. Unfortunately, you will probably need further diagnostic testing in order to get a definitive diagnosis. Hope this helps!

 

[nordica]

Thanks so much everyone, for all of your replies. I'm away on work right now, but when I get back home, I can post what the exact antibiotics we have her on are.

To answer a few of your questions/concerns...

Yes, the reason why the antibiotics were prescribed was because of her elevated WBC count. It wasn't elevated to an alarming level, but the vet wanted to start with treating that, and see how it goes. We inject her every three days (with the medicine as well as with a saline solution), for a total of three weeks.

We were not given any probiotics, so I REALLY appreciate the link that was provided; I'll be putting together an order shortly.

Her uric acid levels were indeed tested, and everything came back normal. Her kidneys are in proper working order. The vet wasn't worried about gout to begin with though, because the swelling isn't at the joints.

She's not currently in shed. Any other times that she has though, she's never had symptoms like this.

An ultra-sound has not been done so far.

Both of her eyes do indeed look like that. I'm wondering if it was just the angle of the camera...

Pinkies are not something we feed her regularly. They've always been a treat that she gets maybe twice a year. For the first few years of her Life (before I met my BF, who is technically Kitteh's owner), she was fed pretty much only Bearded Dragon Bites (I believe Nature Zone makes them), with the occasional group of crickets as a treat every few months. Kitteh was the first reptile that I ever really had any contact with, and so didn't know any better that she wasn't eating the recommended diet, and that she was small for her age. About six months or so ago, The BF came across some beardies in a pet store, and realized just how much BIGGER they were than Kitteh. So we decided to "fatten her up" by offering, every day, crickets, mealworms, superworms, wax worms, calciworms, etc. Up until fairly recently, we, ashamedly, were unaware that they needed so many greens in their daily diet, but a pattern had already been created with Kitteh, and so she won't touch them. We figure we're just going to offer them daily anyway, and hope she gets the idea.

And yes, taking her to the vet was expensive; the simple examination, blood work, and x-rays (plus medication to take home) ran us about $400, and there's still PLENTY more that can be tested and looked at.