Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

[Drache613]

Merged & Moved by Moderator to keep both topics organized.

 

[DanielleGia920]

Good morning Tracie,

Thank you so much for your response. I use Rep-cal calcium without phosphorus and without D3 and Rep-cal Herptivite with Beta carotene Multivitamin. Here is a picture of her set up.

the mvb is 12 inches from the basking rock and then I have the 24 inch t5ho with a 10.0 reptisun in it. That is off to the side of the mvb. The long 36 inch t5ho that goes along the back of the tank was added for extra white light, that has a 5.0 in it. I didn't want to over do it with the uvb but wanted it nice and bright in there for her. Everything sits on top of a very fine mesh screen.

no I have not taken any readings, i would absolutely love to take readings because not knowing how much uvb she is getting drives me nuts. I looked online and they were 2-3 hundred, I'll try working that out. I called Nutley Animal Hospital in Nutley NJ this morning and she said the reptile vet is only in mon-fri so I got an apt for 10 am Monday morning. So too much uvb can also cause this problem? I did replace the mvb about a month ago I originally had the exo terra solar glo but heard it wasn't that great and didn't put out enough uvb so I replaced it with the megaray. Do you think I should put the exo terra solar glo back in for now? I only used it for about a month before switching it out for the mega ray so it still works just fine. Maybe the megaray with the t5s are just too much uvb? Uhhh this is why I need the uvb meter, it's so stressful.

Also the hand on the left front also looks swollen, I'm guessing thats why her "middle" finger is sticking straight out on that hand instead of bending, from the pressure?

in not sure how much she weighs, I don't have a scale. I would think so, she's 13 inch and pretty hardy.

I'll have them do X-ray, bloodwork and fecal on Monday and I'll get the results sent to me so I can share with everyone. I'll get her started on the juice and look for some silkworms as well.

One more thing, I think I read here that when you have gout you should keep a low protein diet to help with kidney function. Should I stop giving her the dubais and stick to baby green slurries?

Thanks again for your time and all your help! I really do appreciate it!

Danielle

 

[EllenD]

You want to limit her protein, but at her age you don't want to stop it, as she needs it. Dubias are loaded with protein and aren't the best option when dealing with gout, but both Silkworms and BSFL are good choices. If she was an adult this is easier, but because she's still under a year old she can't have no protein. Usually it's just about switching protein sources if roaches are being used, and giving lots and lots of hydration by mouth.

I'll let Tracie give her recommendations for feeders as far as how many and how often, as she knows more about these details than me. But I'm very, very glad you have an appointment with a reptile specialist on Monday! As we already said, treating gout successfully really does seem to be dependent upon getting an early diagnosis and starting the Allopurinol ASAP. I hope it is just visceral gout, but your husbandry is good and your Calcium supplement does not contain vitamin D3, and your multivitamin uses natural sources of other vitamins, so that probably isn't the issue, but you never know. Gout seems to be becoming so common in bearded dragons recently that the bright side is that more and more reptile vets are learning how to properly treat it, and honestly if it's caught early, it's not nearly as big a deal as it used to be.

It's a shame, between gout and Adenovirus these irresponsible breeders are causing so many problems in their bloodlines it's unbelievable. I mean, if breeders would test for Adenovirus in 100% of their babies (and breeders) and refuse to sell the dragons that are positive, but rather quarantine them and treat them, it wouldn't be a big deal. As it is it's a worry any time you buy a new baby dragon ANYWHERE, whether it's from a private pet shop, a Petco or PetSmart, a small, local breeder, or from one of the large, well-known breeders that everyone knows of. It doesn't matter, none of them test and people are paying big bucks for babies because they want a special morph or color. So it's unfortunately not uncommon for someone to buy a special morph or color baby dragon online for between $200-$500 or more (I know someone who just prepaid $900 for a Purple Paradox baby from a big breeder's next clutch, UHG), and the baby shows up with Adenovirus, which isn't typically diagnosed until the person has it for a month or two. And what really sucks is that the best solution the breeder has is "well, if you want another baby as a replacement I'll give you one from my next clutch". Meanwhile, the poor $500 baby with Adenovirus is now thought of as a pain and in the way, and the owner has to choose whether to spend money every month on supplements and meds to treat it every day, or send it back to the breeder (who will just euthanize it), or to euthanize it themselves. It sucks. And genetically-linked gout is just as common now. Reptiles need to be thought of just the same as dogs and cats, and they need to be tested just the same. And they need to put the same money into developing an Adenovirus cure as they have put into developing the like for dogs. Tracie is working on a cure for Adenovirus, and she's also the resident Gout expert, so we're lucky to have her as a resource here on this forum...

I know this sucks, but hang in there, you're doing a fantastic job of taking care of her and she's going to be fine. It's amazing how well they respond to Allopurinol, it takes a couple of weeks of them taking it to start to kick in, but overall it works amazingly well. And luckily it's an extremely cheap prescription medication because it's a common human drug that is available in many generic forms. And you jumped on this very early, I mean I think I asked you if she had any swelling in your first post a few days ago because I couldn't see any swelling in the original photos at all. So you literally have caught this as early as you possibly could, and she's going to a reptile specialist in 2 days! That's awesome! I appreciate you taking such good care of her, and please keep us up to date on her, ask any questions you may have at any time, and definitely report back on Monday after her appointment!!!

Tracie will check in shortly I'm sure, so she can advise you on changing his diet up. I do recommend doing an online search for a place to buy bulk Silkworms, they're a perfect staple feeder for a young juvenile beardie with gout... They're probably the best staple feeder insect for beardies anyway, regardless of the gout, and the Serapeptase seems to be the best available, natural pain and inflammation treatment for beardies with gout, so the fact that they are loaded with it naturally makes them a must.

 

[DanielleGia920]

Yes its very sad! Once something becomes of "high demand" it's all about dollars and cents to some people and they lose sight of the fact that these are living breathing animals not just a bill of sale! ?

Deka was a gift for my son for his tenth birthday this past August, hence the name Deka which means 10 in Greek. I have to admit though I'm the one who is absolutely in love with her. Hoping this vet knows what he's doing so we can get her feeling better soon.


As for the swelling, i didn't really notice much swelling on Wednesday when I first posted. I just noticed her walking oddly and she wasn't acting herself. Since then I noticed her hand and foot looks "lumpy" and her toes seem to be in an awkward position. Hopefully this vet knows what he's doing and she'll be back to her normal self soon!

Thanks again ladies for all your knowledge and help! ??

Danielle

 

[Drache613]

Hello Danielle,

How is your girl, Deka, this morning? I'm glad you have an appointment for the vets. It may be
borderline as to how much she weighs. They normally don't like doing blood draws on them
less than 100 grams, it takes too much out of them. That is a great name, by the way.
I wish I could measure your light for you. I am thinking that it might have been brought on
by the initial UVB lighting the Solar Glo MVB. I like that light, it's nice & bright, but, it does
not emit much UVB or didn't used to a year or so ago when I tested one. The fine mesh can
block out quite a bit of UVB. When you were using the Solar Glo MVB, did you have the T5
tube bulbs in use with that or not?
The T5 tube is a 10% Reptisun, correct? There are a couple of options you could do. You
could mount both T5 10% & the 5% Reptisun tube bulbs underneath of the screen as long as
they are not closer than 8-10 inches from her but leave the Megaray on top of the screen.
The screen is likely blocking enough of that out that you could use both T5's inside of the tank.
Or, you could find a way to take the screen top off (if that is plausible without a cat, etc
around), to secure the tube bulbs to the side to where they shine straight downward onto
her & use the Solar Glo as a basking bulb with a small amount of UVB going to her. I would
hesitate that often, too much UVB is the issue. Usually, if a MVB is used in too small of a
tank, then that can overwhelm them or harm their eyes, etc. In the wild though, the natural
sun is strong but perfect in the UVB to UVI ratio, always. It's hard to emulate nature for sure,
but your setup looks good & I know you are trying. It isn't your fault when lights aren't good.
There isn't much if any regulation on the UVB Lights for the Reptile industry, unfortunately.
I think that perhaps early on, she wasn't getting enough UVB & it just took awhile to catch
up to her & it affected her body's ability to absorb calcium & other vitamins. That can lead
to gout because of poor absorption & stressing the kidneys poor absorption of everything in
general & not breaking protein or purine down very well. If they receiving proper calcium,
but have poor UVB then the body doesn't absorb it well which leads to problems.
Let's see what the bloodwork & x-rays reveal, hopefully they will help pinpoint something.
Let us know how you decide to go with the lights.
As EllenD suggested, silkworms are very helpful & are digested easily too. Dubias are very
good but high in purine so maybe cut back on those slightly. You could add a slurry to her
weekly intake comprising of alfalfa powder, wheatgrass & barley powder for non purine type
of protein sources. Mix those with water or a diluted apple, grape or cranberry juice, or even
the black cherry powder or juice whichever form you decide on. That way she doesn't have a
huge protein deficit. We will get it all ironed out!
Ok, good the herptivite is better than the reptivite. You can continue using those right now.
Silkworms are in short supply right now for some reason. Mulberry farms is out, but here is a
link to someone who says she has some & to contact her. I would jump on it today though, as
she will run out fast!
http://www.lindasgonebuggie.com/

I have some eggs here but it would take awhile to hatch out.

Tracie

 

[DanielleGia920]

Hi Tracie and Ellen!

Thanks for all your help and support!

I ordered silkies on amazon this morning from silkies2go, hopefully they'll be here sooner than later.

Have another question. Whenever I'm walking with her, especially if I walk fast or if I turn, she does this thing with her head. It almost looks like a twitch, I always thought she was just trying to look over an area as much as possible but now I'm thinking maybe this isn't normal. This is my first reptile ever so I don't know what's normal behavior and what isn't. Does this look normal?

https://youtu.be/Ca0rKo6tmPM

 

[Drache613]

Hello Danielle,

That appears to be your girl's head just simply following what she sees. They can have a
jerky type or fast head type of movement like that, when looking around or following something
when you carry them like that. I don't think it's a head tremor like with metabolic bone disease.
Wow you found some silkies then, that is extremely lucky! I hope that you get them quickly. Did
they send you a tracking number too? I hope they are all healthy. Did you get some silkworm
chow/feed as well, they do need that!
How is she doing today?

Tracie

 

[DanielleGia920]

Good morning!

The silkies have not shipped yet so they have not provided tracking number as of yet. Yes, it said it comes with two containers, one of them is the silk worms and the other is a container of food.

I finally found some black cherry concentrate. It was in the vitamin isle. ? Is this ok...

do I dilute half and half with water?

She went from her rock to her hammock today. I haven't seen her on her hammock in a week. I'm pretty sure she only did that because she had gone to the bathroom. She acts as if she is afraid of her own poop, she won't go anywhere near it. Since it was blocking the way back to her rock she had to venture on lol.

I tried removing screen last night and putting the solar glo along with the the t5s but it was extremely hard to control the temperature. The solar glo is 125 watts and the megaray is only 100 watts. Even with the rock lowered and the lamp as high as it would go it was still about 118 degrees on her basking rock. So the megaray went back in and I put a 10.0 in the 36 inch t5 hood and that is pushed back a little bit. This way when she's on her basking rock she'll get the mega ray but the t5 won't be right above her. If she goes anywhere else in her viv she can get the t5 10.0. In the meantime I need to work on getting a uvb meter, all this guess work is crazy. I probably spent more on changing bulbs and fixtures than I would have if I just bought the meter to begin with. Lesson learned ??‍

 

[EllenD]

Yeah, that's just her moving her head back and forth as she's looking around at what's going on, they see in full color, better than we do actually, so they are very inquisitive about everything! It's very, very good that she is as alert, aware, and bright as she is, she looks great. That's definitely not a "twitch" or "tremor" due to a neurological issue or any type of nutritional deficiency disease, as we both already mentioned your husbandry is very good, diet is very good, and she doesn't show a single sign of MBD or Vitamin B1 deficiency disease, which shows very similar outward signs and symptoms to MBD. If you ever see a dragon that is having tremors or a "twitching" due to either MBD, Vitamin B1 deficiency, or any other neurological issue, you'll know it, as it will be very obviously involuntary, like the dragon isn't even aware that it's happening, and the "twitches" are usually isolated to one leg, one toe, or the tip of the tail. By the time they start having full-on tremors or their heads or their necks, the disease is pretty far advanced, and this almost looks like a full-on seizure by that point. The beginning "twitches" of MBD and the like are very, very fast, isolated twitches that usually last for only a few seconds, and as I said it's usually a single toe, or the entire foot. If you've ever felt an involuntary muscle twitch yourself somewhere, like in your leg or even your eyelid, and you look down at your your leg where you feel the twitch and you can actually see the quick little "twitching" under your skin, it's like that. There is no mistaking it as being a neurological issue.

As for the Black Cherry extract, yep, that's it. I've seen people use that and there is also a "Tart Cherry Juice" that comes in a large, plastic bottle and is in with the fruit juice typically. The only difference is that the Juice is already diluted, so yes, you can do a 50/50 dilution on the extract and give that to her. Sometimes they like it, sometimes they don't, lol. Try to get her to take a couple of milliliters if you can to start, not a whole lot, but between 1-2ml and then repeat about 2 hours before lights out for bedtime. Hopefully you'll see a bit of improvement by tomorrow. I'd then give her another dose of it tomorrow morning after her lights have been on for at least an hour, before her vet appointment if you can, then you can give her more later in the afternoon. It's not got a lot of sugar in it, if any, so it's really dependent on how much she's willing to take. Hopefully she likes it and takes it without a fuss...my rescue boy, Nix, is not EVER amused by ANYTHING I have to give him like this, lol, he fights me every second. I think he has it in his head that if it's not on his terms, it's not going to be easy for me He'd eat black cherries all day long on his own, but he'd spit the juice I was trying to give him out...little bugger....

As far as her fear of her own poop, lol, it's probably not so much a fear as it is they absolutely HATE the smell of their own poop (who can blame them). All 4 of the beardies I have had throughout my life avoided pooping inside their enclosures as much as they could, and when they do poop inside their enclosures they avoid it like the plague. My 10 month old girl Izzy did this last week, poor girl, she got down off of her favorite basking rock onto the tile floor next to it and did a massive poop. Well I was out for about 4 hours, and when I came back Izzy was on the opposite Cool Side of her enclosure, as far away from the poop as she could possibly get and squishing herself against the side wall, with her front feet up on the bedding dam and her nose pressed against the sliding glass door I have no idea how long she was standing there like that, but she looked like her best friend died...I opened her door up and she flew out the door, across the kitchen and dining room and into the living room, and hopped right up on the couch and just sat there staring at me while I cleaned her house out...not my fault she pooped by her basking spot, little brat...

As far as the lighting/temperature situation goes, I know how frustrating that is, once you finally get it all correct and you have to change one little thing, it will throw everything completely way out of whack...In my opinion you want to keep the MegaRay instead of the Solar Glo, because as Tracie already mentioned the SolarGlo, for whatever reasons, has not gotten good reviews at all, mainly because the amount of UVB light it emits is very inconsistent and typically not adequate. It also doesn't seem to emit adequate UVB light for near as long as it should. The MegaRay is by far the best MVB available, and the PowerSun also seems to do very well, but the MegaRay is definitely the way to go if using an MVB. If you just got the MegaRay a month or so ago then it's fine, I have yet to hear anyone complaining that their MegaRay stopped emitting strong UVB light sooner than a year old, at the least, and as Tracie said the MegaRay is definitely strong enough to sit on top of the mesh and will still penetrate more than adequate UVB and UVA light to your beardie if within about 12" of her basking spot. So I would definitely keep the MegaRay, and then use the Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube across the enclosure to provide a consistent UVB light throughout the tank (I'm hoping your UVB tube fixture/hood has a metal reflector in it behind where the UVB tube sits). So if you can get the temperature gradient within the correct ranges using those 2 lights (sometimes people need to add a low-wattage, secondary bright white basking bulb in a clamp lamp over the Cool Side to get it up between 75-80 degrees when using an MVB over the basking spot, it all depends on your enclosure and the ambient, surrounding temperature of your house).

I hadn't thought about the fact that you said you had been using a SolarGlo MVB up until recently when you switched to the MegaRay, as Tracie mentioned that may have impacted the Gout, it wouldn't surprise me one bit, as I seriously have not heard many good things about the SolarGlo at all. The other thing I did think about but forgot to ask you, as far as the Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube you have, what color are the end caps on it? And how old is it? I've been using this same UVB tube exclusively for years with absolutely zero issues, I love the Reptisun 10.0 T5HO, but a month or two back Reptisun admitted that they had a couple of batches of specifically the 10.0 T5HO tubes that were defective and were not emitting nearly the amount of UVB light as they should have been or as they usually do. It was an error in the manufacturing process, I guess. I got lucky, I had just ordered 3 24" T5HO tubes on Amazon when this came to light, but the ones I got were fine...if your end caps are gold and were purchased in the past 6 months, I'm pretty sure those are the ones that are defective, and I believe Reptisun (ZooMed) is replacing them for free if you take them back to where you bought them. Tracie knows the specifics of this, she will help to confirm this when she sees this, but I'm just thinking that if you were unfortunate enough to get one of the defective T5HO tubes (I think it was only the 10.0 T5HO tubes, I know you also have a 5.0 T5HO tube, so hopefully Tracie can answer that too), and then you also were using a SolarGlo MVB above the mesh lid, that might have been a double UVB whammy...

 

[DanielleGia920]

Oh wow I didn't know that about the reptisun bulbs! I have two 5.0 bulbs which have the reddish caps and two 10.0 bulbs that have the gold caps. I bought everything online from Amazon. The 24 inch tube 5.0 and 10.0 I bought in August and the 36 inch tube 5.0 was bought in September and then the 36 inch 10.0 tube I just bought two weeks ago. I was using the solar glo with the 24 inch 10.0 reptisun tube for the first month or so then I bought the mega ray in September. Everything was bought over the last two months. As for reflectors, yes I bought zoo med t5ho slim hood fixtures which both have reflectors and the inside of the basking lamp also has a reflective covering.

So I may not have been providing her with uvb and the pet store I got her from wasnt providing her with much UVB. They had a 5.0 t8 lamp nearly two feet above her tank. So she may have went months without it

Omg that story about Izzy and the poop was so funny! We also try not to poop in the cage, she usually comes out and does her business but I was at the store as well, oops. When I hear stories like yours, how your beardie ran out of the cage across two rooms and jumped up on the couch it makes me think somethings not right with her. I know I shouldn't compare and every beardie is different But She is not active at all, I've never seen her run around and explore and play. If I take her out of the viv she will run right back to it and stare at it until I put her back in and she'll sit on her rock pretty much all day. ? She has to have some type of exercise right? I can't imagine sitting in the same spot nearly all day long everyday. I had to start tong feeding her insects because she would never chase after them. Unless they walked right up to her she wouldn't get any. So maybe something has been hurting her this whole time. I'm eager to see the X-ray and blood results. (I also saved her bowel movement today ?) in the hopes of having a fecal done. I picked up the hand warmers and bought a soft sided Sherpa lined pet carrier for her, hope she stays nice and warm!

I'll let you guys know what the verdict is tomorrow once I'm outta there. I'm hoping something is pinpointed so at least there's something I can work towards rectifying. ??

As always, thank you so much for all your information and experience!!

 

[DanielleGia920]

Just read the thread about the low readings in the reptisun 10.0 bulbs and yes, of course, I have the red and gold caps not the silver caps. So the potential bad bulbs are still being sold that's sucks! Unless you have a uvb meter you have no way of telling if your bulb is good or bad. I saw the rep from zoo med said as long as the bearded dragon gets 1.7 uvi then it's fine. Really, that seems pretty low. Is that even true?

 

[CooperDragon]

1.7 UVI is a bit low for basking but fine for a middle zone in the tank. It's like mid morning or partial shade. I like to see 3-6 UVI over the basking zone and then provide a gradient down to little to no UVB in other areas of the tank to provide choices. I've tested one of the ReptiSun 10 T5 bulbs w/gold caps recently and found that while it has slightly lower output than normal it is still putting out sufficient UVB if it's kept at the proper distance and based on a burn in time of over a week I didn't see any significant or unusual drops in output. This was a very small sample size of course but from what I can see these bulbs are still OK to use. After burn-in, I read 3-6 UVI between 8-14'' from the bulb with nothing between the bulb and the meter. There has been several ideas shared about this on this thread https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=236122

 

[AHBD]

Worth noting that your screen is NOT the type that blocks the higher amount of uvb. It's flyscreen type mesh that reduces it up to about 40%, your type of screen will only reduce uvb in the 20-25% range.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Danielle,

How is your girl today?
The Black cherry juice is fine, no need to dilute it. Though, if you would like to give extra oral
fluids, you can definitely add water to it so I guess that would be diluting it. You can give her
.5ml to 1ml of the juice daily. It tastes pretty good so I am pretty sure she'll like it!
I know it's frustrating trying to get the lighting fixed & rearranged but eventually you will get it
all correct & then you will have it down!
As far as the Reptisun 10 T5 tube, you may have one that has not emitted much. How long have
you had the tubes, a year or less? Cooper explained about the end caps & the UVI output. I agree,
while it is still low, it is OK. Though it was on top of the screen so not a lot got through it. That
is excellent you have a reflective backing so that should have helped out. I hope that they have
gotten it under control & fixed. The reptile industry can't afford to lose a lighting company, there
are so few of them that have decent lights!
The Solar Glo is a beautiful light, it has a good brightness & is good for basking. It just doesn't
have enough UVB, especially for a MVB, either.
The Megarays perform well now, thankfully after going through a several year slump with glass
& phosphorus issues! Arcadia also has a great MVB light, but it is UK produced & runs off of 220V instead of 120V so you need a step up converter. I think you have it all arranged nicely now.
I think it's just unfortunate luck your girl developed gout. I am sure we can get it reversed or at
least managed!

Let us know how everything is going.

Tracie

 

[DanielleGia920]

Hi guys thanks for all your responses. Glad to hear that my style screen would have only blocked out about 25 percent! That's good news. Just got back from vet. Here is Deka's x-ray....

Dr said x ray looked pretty good, and as everyone here has said my husbandry and dusting schedules are not an issue. She said as you go further down towards the finger and toes it doesn't look as good, it's not as bright in the X-ray. Does that mean the ones aren't as dense? Deka is only 60 grams but the dr did bloodwork. She said she can get a little bit of blood, just enough to do the panel so we can see if it's gout or what.

The trip alone was hard enough on her, she seemed pretty stressed. Bloodwork was done on top of that, she is absolutely wiped out. She isn't moving at all. Oh btw, this morning I noticed her front legs were not moving either. Eapecially the one that has that finger that sticks straight up in the air, she Would try and move it and the leg would shake and tremble and then she would give up.

She looks really wiped out, her eyes are sooooo sunken in. What can I do to help this? Black cherry juice and fluids? will dubais help or hurt at this point?