Gene Pool in 2023?

[Pravius_v2]

Preface, I used to be big into breeding Dragon's back in the late 90's/early 2000's when names like Sandfire, Peter Weis, etc were the leading breeders in the hobby. I left the hobby around 2011 when most of my original dragon's had either passed or moved into different homes and I started to focus heavy on my career (IT).

Back then I was concerned for the future of the gene pool because Australia has banned the export of wild dragon's many moons ago, so no real good way to introduce fresh / new genes into the pool of captive BD's over the years.

I am getting back into the hobby because my now 4 year old daughter has shown some interest in keeping reptiles and I am excited to teach her the proper ways to care for them. As I have been researching, I am seeing a significant amount of what I perceive to be genetic issues (most people see them as morphs) and wonder if the gene pool is just shrinking because of so many back yard breeders and no real way to track bloodlines anymore.

Any opinions on this? Curious to hear other perspectives that have been into breeding for some time.

 

[Hazel_Basil10]

My dad has bred lizards and I am pretty sure he's bred bearded dragons twice. For me, I think from my dad's experience I would say it is now harder to bring back genes as generations move on from the next year to the next and eventually to 2023. Idk thats just my opinion

 

[xp29]

Some breeders have started breeding in barbata to pogonas to strengthen the gentics.

 

[SkittlesK]

I haven't seen a good 'highlighter yellow' in a long time.
I noticed the gene pool shrinking as well.

 

[Hazel_Basil10]

@AHBD might have an opinion on this as well

 

[SkittlesK]

I've seen some nice yellows but it would be if they were more 'vibrant'.
Like the 'Red Monsters' that are going around.

 

[Hazel_Basil10]

I've seen some nice yellows but it would be if they were more 'vibrant'.
Like the 'Red Monsters' that are going around.

My friend has a 3 year old BRIGHT Yellow and a little bit of orange Leatherback And her name is Lemon which i was shocked of how she got that vibrate Yellow bearded dragon since its hard noe these days to get that bright color

 

[xp29]

Brights colors are mostly accomplished by having the hypo, trans, or both genes. Hypo is a reduced dark pigment, and trans is an absence of white pigment. Both mutations make the other colors pop.

 

[Pravius_v2]

I've seen some nice yellows but it would be if they were more 'vibrant'.
Like the 'Red Monsters' that are going around.

I’m more specifically talking about genetic abnormalities (morphs) not necessarily color. I have to imagine there is a relatively good chance there is significant inbreeding going on at this point, it could be attributed to many health issues that seemingly has become more dominate over the last decade or so.

I’ve not been in the hobby this time around for very long but I see a ton of posts on this forum, Facebook, Reddit, etc where dragons seem to be having tons of health issues. I just wonder if it’s attributed more to bad husbandry or deeper genetic issues at play.

 

[AHBD]

Hello, this is an interesting subject for sure but probably not many concrete answers since specialty reptile medicine doesn't seem to be too far advanced.
First off my question to you is when you say "what I perceive to be genetic issues (most people see them as morphs), then which morphs do you mean , and do you feel the morphs themselves are produced through a genetic flaw and seen as a negative health issue ? Sorry if that's confusing but hopefully you get what I mean.
As far as wondering how diverse the gene pool is for beardie's , that's a good question. Back in the day there were breeders that put out huge quantities of dragons, probably Pete Weiss, Bob Mailloux [ sandfire dragon ranch ] , Rick Millspaugh, Kevin Dunne [ Dragon's Den, creator of the " Dunner "morph ] Then there was Tammy Aldrich from Dragon Tails [ famous for the bold colored citrus tiger and other high color dragons ] and the Dachiu's who still breed to this day. Some of those breeders also traveled to or had dragons shipped from other countries so they no doubt brought the most diversity in to their bloodlines as possible.

As far as the most common and serious health problem [ aside from MBD which is usually related to husbandry issues like lack of proper lighting + calcium intake ] there seems to be an alarming number of dragons that develop gastric neuroendocrine carcinoma and many of us scratch our heads as to what could be causing this fatal disease. Then there's yellow fungus disease which may at times seem to pop out of nowhere, whether the dragon is kept in good conditions or not. Those are just a couple of serious problems that come to mind.

 

[Pravius_v2]

Hello, this is an interesting subject for sure but probably not many concrete answers since specialty reptile medicine doesn't seem to be too far advanced.
First off my question to you is when you say "what I perceive to be genetic issues (most people see them as morphs), then which morphs do you mean , and do you feel the morphs themselves are produced through a genetic flaw and seen as a negative health issue ? Sorry if that's confusing but hopefully you get what I mean.
As far as wondering how diverse the gene pool is for beardie's , that's a good question. Back in the day there were breeders that put out huge quantities of dragons, probably Pete Weiss, Bob Mailloux [ sandfire dragon ranch ] , Rick Millspaugh, Kevin Dunne [ Dragon's Den, creator of the " Dunner "morph ] Then there was Tammy Aldrich from Dragon Tails [ famous for the bold colored citrus tiger and other high color dragons ] and the Dachiu's who still breed to this day. Some of those breeders also traveled to or had dragons shipped from other countries so they no doubt brought the most diversity in to their bloodlines as possible.

As far as the most common and serious health problem [ aside from MBD which is usually related to husbandry issues like lack of proper lighting + calcium intake ] there seems to be an alarming number of dragons that develop gastric neuroendocrine carcinoma and many of us scratch our heads as to what could be causing this fatal disease. Then there's yellow fungus disease which may at times seem to pop out of nowhere, whether the dragon is kept in good conditions or not. Those are just a couple of serious problems that come to mind.

Makes total sense and to be honest, I’m conflicted, but largely the way I view it, any deviation from their natural evolved state (genetically) represents a genetic deformation.

I’m mainly referring to silkbacks, leather backs, etc. they have evolved genetically to have scales.

In terms of health, gastric neuroendocrine carcinoma is what I’ve been seeing a lot of. I watched the beardievet interview and I tend to agree with his theory but until it’s studied more (which may never happen) it’s pure theory.

I remember talking to many of those people you mentioned back in the day about their efforts to strengthen and diversify the gene pool but after seeing the current breeding landscape and doing some research on modern day breeders it seems that largely the attitude has changed. Back then I feel that people were breeding for the “right” reasons (love of the hobby, stronger (genetically or otherwise) animals, and ultimately passion for bearded dragons)… I’m afraid the majority of the driving intention today is money and people almost seem to value these morphs, which is ultimately what led me to ask for this feedback.

I appreciate the responses

 

[xp29]

Morphs are genetic mutations for sure, but keep in mind evolution. In the wild only the strong AND well adaptive survive. Captive animals don't have the same stressors. So if you followed a line of free range animals and a line of captive animals i would imagine after a period of time you would start seeing deviations of the two lines (assuming both lines started from the same stock). In the wild evolution can take many generations but out of nowhere a line can change very unexpectedly very quickly. So that leaves me to wonder if in captive bred animals with less work just to survive if that could be excellerated. Not all mutations are necessarily bad or weaken the animal. Also many of the traits we see in the captive bred mutations can be seen in a smaller degree in wild animals, so some of that genetic information must already exist in a totally wild sampling. So i would think attentive breeders through careful selective breeding could bring those traits out. Their color is a good example (although color isn't a morph, but it is a trait).

 

[AHBD]

Makes total sense and to be honest, I’m conflicted, but largely the way I view it, any deviation from their natural evolved state (genetically) represents a genetic deformation.

I’m mainly referring to silkbacks, leather backs, etc. they have evolved genetically to have scales.

In terms of health, gastric neuroendocrine carcinoma is what I’ve been seeing a lot of. I watched the beardievet interview and I tend to agree with his theory but until it’s studied more (which may never happen) it’s pure theory.

I remember talking to many of those people you mentioned back in the day about their efforts to strengthen and diversify the gene pool but after seeing the current breeding landscape and doing some research on modern day breeders it seems that largely the attitude has changed. Back then I feel that people were breeding for the “right” reasons (love of the hobby, stronger (genetically or otherwise) animals, and ultimately passion for bearded dragons)… I’m afraid the majority of the driving intention today is money and people almost seem to value these morphs, which is ultimately what led me to ask for this feedback.

I appreciate the responses

The morphs that seemed to cause the most trouble when they first came out were transluscent [ trans ] and Witblits. Breeding trans to trans produced weak , sickly babies and the Witblits were reportedly very weak and didn't live long. That's why breeders would then keep the few healthy ones and cross them with a different morph, normal phase, etc. Those mutations would never gotten a foothold in the wild and would have died or been eaten quickly as babies in their weak condition. So you wouldn't find them in the wild, these were totally man made.
Leatherbacks seem to be as healthy as normal scaled dragons but most breeders would never breed 2 of them because that would produce a certain amount of silkbacks [ with their skin problems ] in every clutch.
Oh, and as far as the troublesome diseases along with cancer and yellow fungus I forgot to mention atadenovirus as well.

 

[Hazel_Basil10]

Brights colors are mostly accomplished by having the hypo, trans, or both genes. Hypo is a reduced dark pigment, and trans is an absence of white pigment. Both mutations make the other colors pop.

Yup