Dusting Calcium+ D3? Also ReptoLife?

[DoctorevoL]

Hello, I have a question. I have ReptoCal, and it says to only dust one or two times a week. Now I've looked it up, and many others say to use it 3-5 or just the 1-2 times. My bearded dragon is a month and a half old, still a lil baby. So how many times a week should I dust his food? He eats like a pig too, first time I got him from his owner, he responded quite well to hand feeding and eats his veggies without a problem.

Also with RepoLife. Should I dust them over the Calcium, or keep that to a separate feeding? What I'd normally do is start him off with veggies 5 minutes in and then give him crickets. Should I dust the veggies with it? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Taterbug]

I'm not familiar with reptocal/life. Is there an ingredients label in the side? I found a few different lists so in not sure what's accurate.

You want to dust all your feeders with a low phosphorus calcium. This balances the calciumhosphorus ratio of the bugs. You want a light dusting, not a powder coat.

2 times a week you want to dust with a multi vitamin, this supplements vitamins into the diet. Some vitamins can be over supplemented though so this is limited to 2x a week.

 

[DoctorevoL]

Yea, there is. Here's a link to it on a PetCo site

http://www.petco.com/product/5693/TetraFauna-Reptocal-Reptile-Supplement.aspx

I remember all that when I fed my first bearded dragon, I just never gave her vitamins when she was younger because I was getting all the info from an employee at the pet store when I first brought her. I just never used this specific brand before so it led me to a few questions.

 

[Taterbug]

Sorry for repeating things.

It looks like it has vitamins in it as well, so it probably should be used on the multivitamin schedule, but be aware it doesn't list very many vitamin/minerals. Maybe someone else can chime in. There are a few more complete multis out there, but I don't have much personal experience, I've always used reptivite. You probably want to look at getting a plain (w/ D3) calcium dust for daily use if you don't have one.

Vitamins (min. amounts per lb.): vitamin A 116,587 i.u., vitamin D3 17,479 i.u., vitamin E 49.94 mg, thiamine 5.81 mg, riboflavin 11.57 mg, d-pantothenic acid 93.07 mg, menadione 46.3 mg.

 

[jarich]

What sort of UV light do you have and how far from your dragon is it?

I know it seems like an odd question when you were asking about vitamin/mineral powders but it is applicable. Basically, if you have a good UV light mounted close enough then there is no need to buy the calcium with vitamin D3 in it. Because nearly all feeder insects have a poor Ca (calcium to phosphorous) ratio, they should be gut loaded and dusted at every feeding with just straight calcium powder (without D3). Like Taterbug said, this should be a light dusting, not caked on. However, the lizard should be producing all the Vit D metabolites it needs from the UV exposure on its skin. It is a naturally synthesized hormone that is produced when UVB wavelengths hit the skin. The use of powders was in response to keeping animals without UV light, and does have the potential, though rare, to cause toxicity. Because it is a fat soluble vitamin, it can build up over time in the body and cause problems, unlike water soluble vitamins that are just excreted if they are over ingested.

The multivitamin powder you can use once or twice a week instead of the calcium powder. Usually if you put on one powder, the other wont 'stick' after that, so one at a time is best.

 

[DoctorevoL]

I have the Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb and it's about 13-16 inches away from him. Really though? Because I dusted and fed my other bearded dragon Calcium w D3 and it proved to be fine for her.

 

[Tonja]

If you have your reptisun on the top of the tank, the screen is going to block a lot of the UVB your beardie needs. It needs to be 6-8 inches from your baby and preferably mounted inside the tank with command hooks or heavy duty Velcro.

 

[jarich]

I have the Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb and it's about 13-16 inches away from him. Really though? Because I dusted and fed my other bearded dragon Calcium w D3 and it proved to be fine for her.

Again, its not that it always causes problems, its just totally unnecessary and has the potential to cause problems. Its basically an artificial hormone, so if you dont need it, my suggestion would always be to steer clear of it. However, if you have the normal output T8 Reptisun, then Tonja is right in saying that you need to move that closer to your animal. Is there a reflector in the fixture?

 

[Taterbug]

I think the concern with D3 is if it's over supplemented it can imbalance the blood calcium levels (too high) and result in calcification of the soft tissues. That sort if thing can go pretty much unnoticed but would eventually tax the organs. It would take quite a lot to sicken or kill from the dust we use.

 

[DoctorevoL]

If you have your reptisun on the top of the tank, the screen is going to block a lot of the UVB your beardie needs. It needs to be 6-8 inches from your baby and preferably mounted inside the tank with command hooks or heavy duty Velcro.

Ahh, I see. I'll def look into that, because I was wanting to put it inside the tank as well.

I have the Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb and it's about 13-16 inches away from him. Really though? Because I dusted and fed my other bearded dragon Calcium w D3 and it proved to be fine for her.

Again, its not that it always causes problems, its just totally unnecessary and has the potential to cause problems. Its basically an artificial hormone, so if you dont need it, my suggestion would always be to steer clear of it. However, if you have the normal output T8 Reptisun, then Tonja is right in saying that you need to move that closer to your animal. Is there a reflector in the fixture?

Yep, there's one in it.

I think the concern with D3 is if it's over supplemented it can imbalance the blood calcium levels (too high) and result in calcification of the soft tissues. That sort if thing can go pretty much unnoticed but would eventually tax the organs. It would take quite a lot to sicken or kill from the dust we use.

That I didn't know. Alright, so I'll look into a dust for just the Calcium. Thanks for your answers everyone!

 

[Tonja]

It is recommended to use calcium with vitamin d-3 in it with the reptisun tube lights as the light itself does not produce enough uvb to cause natural d-3 to synthesize in the skin and d-3 is needed so it makes the beardie utilize the calcium you are giving it. Without the d-3 being given with the reptisun, and it in turn causing the calcium to not being utilized it can lead to metabolic bone disease. The forum recommends d-3 with the arcadia and the reptisun fluorescent lights.

 

[jarich]

Im sorry Tonja, Im not looking to be argumentative, but those lights will stimulate Vit D metabolite production in the skin, especially with the use of good lights like Zoomed and Arcadia brands that are mounted the proper distance away. That is the whole point of having those lights and the exposure levels they give.

Again, problems related to the overuse of Vit D are not super common, but they do occur. So if good lights are present, there doesnt seem to be much reason to use it.

 

[Cat93]

Im sorry Tonja, Im not looking to be argumentative, but those lights will stimulate Vit D metabolite production in the skin, especially with the use of good lights like Zoomed and Arcadia brands that are mounted the proper distance away. That is the whole point of having those lights and the exposure levels they give.

Again, problems related to the overuse of Vit D are not super common, but they do occur. So if good lights are present, there doesnt seem to be much reason to use it.

Its actually recommended by numerous reputable breeders, as well as exotics vets, to use calcium w/d3 or a multivitamin containing it, unless using an MVB, or otherwise recommended by a qualified professional. I'd also like to point out that even experts who research the subject extensively, do not go as far as to say that any given uvb light WILL stimulate adequate vit d3 production. Hence the reason to provide it in other forms, better safe than sorry being the thought process here. I've always provided my dragon calcium w/d3, and never had a problem.

I'd really enjoy having a look at the vast amount of literature you seem to have (based on the post of yours i've seen) on every given aspect of bearded dragon husbandry. Seriously, I'd like to see something backed up with evidence. The OP was just looking for advice on a supplement schedule, if I were new to the hobby, I would be horridly confused by the over explanatory, unnecessary information. Not looking to be argumentative or anything....

 

[jarich]

I guess Im unsure on how to respond to that Cat. I can give less information or more, but its difficult to do both at the same time. Im not trying to be "over explanatory", just trying to give a thorough explanation so that people understand not just what to do but also why it may be a good idea. I was hoping to avoid taking over someone else's thread with an argument again either way though.

If you know an exotic vet or 'expert' who states that only MVBs produce Vit D in adequate levels, please provide their names. I think however, you will find none willing to say such a thing. Any bulb that produces wavelengths of light between roughly 295-315 um (UVB) will produce vit D metabolites in the skin, however, what is important is that they be close enough and produce enough at those wavelengths to produce appropriate levels of these Vit D metabolites. That is the reason people recommend the normal output T8 Zoomed lights be within about 6-8 inches. If it is that close, the animal will be able to produce enough of its own Vit D metabolites. If it is placed farther away than that, the animal does not get enough exposure to produce enough Vit D metabolites. This is true of any light from MVBs to metal halides to CFLs though. They all require a certain distance to be effective, but they all do the same thing in the end. These lights also allow for the animals natural feedback loop to stop the overproduction of Vit D, however when you dust with it there is no natural feedback loop and you run the risk of using too much. But dont take my word for it, please see one of the foremost experts on reptile lighting, who used to post here, Dr Frances Baines, and her excellent explanation of why we use UVB lights at appropriate distances. http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm

This page also gives some good information:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinviv.htm

 

[Tonja]

I will continue to use calcium with D3 even though I use the reptisun 10.0 and its inside the tank at 6-8 inches from both my beardies. I will recommend calcium with D3 in it to anyone.