dumb question (live feeders)

[Natty]

As i said on the intro board, my little beardie is not fond of Crickets, he eats up to 10 a day if at all (I think he is just to lazy to chase em, although he has killed some and just walks away with them laying dead on the floor). (he loves his greens tho especially mustard greens and turnips)
Someone on here told me to try phoenixworms so I just ordered some to test it. If he like those, can I substitute them completly for chrickets or should i still give him some from time to time? (the worms can not cause any impactations right?) and If i feed them since they are high in calcium do i still need to spinkle them from time to time? and what about the vitamins??

besides his very low interest in food he seems fine (he poops regularly 2x a day, 3 if he had a bath)
and he is getting a new UVB lamp since the one I had was a coil and now that I know they can harm my baby I ordered a new one.

 

[KristineM]

Hi there! Phoenix worms are considered a staple, so you can offer them in place of the crickets They don't need to be dusted with calcium. As for the vitamins, since your baby loves greens you could probably dust those twice a week. I'm not positive there, though! You can also offer dubia roaches in place of the crickets, those still get dusted though.

Good luck and welcome!!!

 

[Natty]

thanks for the super fast reply!!
that takes a big load off my shoulder
Here is hoping he'll like those if not i'll have to try the roaches yikes :?

 

[KristineM]

Well, I have found myself alone this evening (which is extremely rare)...so of course I'd spend what little free time I have browsing the forum It took my little guy a few days to get used to the dubia roaches but the Phoenix worms (also known as calciworms), he was in heaven!

 

[CountofCasualty]

Pheonix and CalciWorms are not the same. They are the same larvae, but do not feed Calci's as a staple. They are to high in calcium to be treated as a staple(3.0-3.5:1). Pheonix worms and Reptiworms are interchangeable(also same larvae), but they are not to high in calcium, 1.2-1.5:1 calchosphorus.

But yes, Pheonix Worms and ReptiWorms are great staples! Silks, Horns and Butter Worms are also good staples as well.

 

[Claudiusx]

do not feed Calci's as a staple. They are to high in calcium to be treated as a staple(3.0-3.5:1).

This is the first I am hearing this type of advice. Yes, Calciworms have a higher calcium ratio, but why do you believe that to be too high of a ratio?

-Brandon

 

[CountofCasualty]

do not feed Calci's as a staple. They are to high in calcium to be treated as a staple(3.0-3.5:1).

This is the first I am hearing this type of advice. Yes, Calciworms have a higher calcium ratio, but why do you believe that to be too high of a ratio?

-Brandon

To much Calcium can cause problems as well. I can't remember exactly where I saw that but it was on the forum. I'll see if I can find it later, but to much calcium can cause digestion or internal problems(from what I remember).

I found this with a google search, but it isn't the thread I first saw it in.

Yes too much calcium is can be bad, it can cause hypercalcemia which can damage the kidneys and cause renal failure.

On this thread: viewtopic.php?p=939433
(yes old b

But even the Calciworm site says they should not be treated as a staple and a supplement only.

 

[Claudiusx]

YesI know about hypercalcemia, I was just curious on if you specifically knew at what point the ratio goes from "ok" to "bad" in regards to Calciumhosphorus content. I do not believe a small 3:1 ratio to be dangerous by any means.
Hypercalcemia isn't really gonna come from a high ratio, its going to come from a measurement of calcium ingested.

For example, something can have a ca ratio of 2:1, and something else can have a ca ratio of 100:1. The thing is, these two things, while having totally different ca ratios, can theoretically have the same amount of calcium per gram. One can just have an extremely low phosphorus rating that skews the ca.

Take collard greens for example. One of the highest recommended staple greens. It has a calciumhosphorus ratio of 14.5:1 Yet, is not only perfectly safe to feed, but is extremely beneficial.

But even the Calciworm site says they should not be treated as a staple

I actually was not aware of this, first time ever even noticing it.

-Brandon

 

[CountofCasualty]

Yes, but when you consider upwards of 50-100 Calciworms per day, especially for the young ones, it can get pretty high up in the calcium idea(Since I don't think the phosphorus changes between the Calci/Pheonix/Repti, just the calcium because of what they are fed). But yeah, a lot of people don't know that, so I kind of just put it in there when I can so more people know and hope that the knowledge spreads. A lot of people also don't know the difference between Pheonix/Repti/Calci, so it's also good to let people know that as well.

Sadly I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the point where it becomes bad. Alas.

 

[Claudiusx]

Yes, but when you consider upwards of 50-100 Calciworms per day, especially for the young ones, it can get pretty high up in the calcium idea(Since I don't think the phosphorus changes between the Calci/Pheonix/Repti, just the calcium because of what they are fed). But yeah, a lot of people don't know that, so I kind of just put it in there when I can so more people know and hope that the knowledge spreads. A lot of people also don't know the difference between Pheonix/Repti/Calci, so it's also good to let people know that as well.

Sadly I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the point where it becomes bad. Alas.

I see where your coming from, but like I mentioned, ratios don't mean much in regards to OD'ing on calcium, its more the amount of calcium in the worms that effects that. I just don't believe that Calciworms (or any insect for that matter) can possibly have enough calcium in its body that feeding it as a staple would cause hypercalcimia.

Since we both don't know the amount of calcium in CW's, we can't really get to the bottom of this.

I personally still say that they can be used as a staple, but I am one to always say variety is best. And I never recommend feeding just one insect anyways.

-Brandon

 

[Claudiusx]

ince we both don't know the amount of calcium in CW's, we can't really get to the bottom of this

I stand corrected.

I remember seeing something yesterday about this. I found it.
http://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=193576

-Brandon

 

[CountofCasualty]

I was just about to post the breakdown from Calciworms. But I'm still siding with them when it comes to using as a supplement and not a true staple.

 

[KristineM]

So, I guess I stand corrected as well. I honestly thought (was told also) that calci and Phoenix and repti were all the same. Thanks for the info. We don't use any worms as a staple (we stick to dubia roaches but if we're out of town our sitter will feed him the Phoenix worms as a staple). Good info!

 

[MuhNamesTyler]

How often should I be dusting my crickets? My beardie is 2-2 1/2 months

 

[KristineM]

5x a week. I dust his first full feeding. A multivitamin 2x a week and I also dust his first full feeding