Debating Euthanasia *UPDATE*

[SpiritScale]

Lowan and I have come to the end of a long, hard road and am sad to say he has a tentative euthanasia appointment scheduled Monday.

To sum it up---he stopped eating, got a distended belly and stopped shedding properly (his skin would look like it was shedding--it just would never come off) when he was about 8-9 months of age (he is now 15 months of age) and since then has basically required daily bathing and force-feedings of both food and water to stay alive. He has not grown at all since then but has put on weight.
He just will not eat on his own however so long as i keep him hydrated and such he is in good shape---the vet says just by looking at him you'd never know he was sick.

Temps, cage size. UV and all that are all up to date and correct, UV (Reptisun 10.0) has been replaced recently.

He has had numerous fecals, xrays, blood panels etc and all were clean. He has been treated with numerous rounds of appetite stimulants, antibiotics, anti-parasites, anti-fungals and many courses of probiotics.
We've tried a little 'tough love' and let him go a couple days without food, we tried changing the feeders...my vet (and every other vet at the clinic) is literally out of ideas.

My health and financial situation has taken a bad turn and I literally do not have the money to keep testing and hoping all the while I know he's miserable because I have to pin him down and force food quite literally down his throat.
I feel like I'm out of options and out of ideas. I wish terribly that there was someone with more money and resources to keep fighting for him (assuming there's anything to be done for him at all).

I guess I just don't know what to do---I've asked around and tried to see if someone would be interested in taking him...but no one will.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there....I'm sorry that you [ and Lowan ] are going through this. Can you post a few pictures of him ? To do so, upload to a site like Photobucket, then copy/paste the img code here. Is his only sign of being unwell just that he won't eat ? There are dragons that go long periods of time without eating, and aren't necessarily sick. Sometimes the " force -feeding " keeps them so full, and stresses them at the same time, that they lose their natural appetite. It may be that if you ease off the feedinfs he will eventually come around. There's no need to euthanize if he's not suffering....and for a beardie, being a very picky eater doesn't mean that they are suffering. Beadies don't actually need food + water every day. If he has been gaining weight, then he is not in any danger at all of starving to death. A good soak once a week is plenty for an adult. Maybe just let him be a lazy lizard for a while and see how he does.

 

[SpiritScale]

Thank you...I adopted him from a rescue when he was a month old and have raised him since then...I do love him very much.

Lowan's signs of being unwell include the not eating, being reasonably lethargic (though responsive and aware---he is also possibly brumating now so don't know if I would factor this in at the moment), improper shedding (despite his care parameters being good and him shedding no problems in the past), the distended abdomen and his tendency to lose weight and get dehydrated very quickly (he gets very wrinkly very fast).
He will only gain (and maintain weight) plus maintain reasonable levels of hydration if force-fed and given water plus bathed daily. Otherwise he gets notably more lethargic (and wrinkly) even just in 48 hours. Perks up notably after soaking and having a poop.

To me, this smacks of some sort of parasite! Buuut his fecals are apparently clean. That said, I believe in my heart of hearts that the fecal samples were some how 'contaminated' or tampered with or improperly collected so came back with a false 'clean' reading.

We have left him to his own devices to just lounge around but it results in a sunken-eyed, wrinkly, weak sickly-looking lethargic dragon pretty fast.

The only thing I can think of that may offer any clues is that he has clearly off poops (urates are sometimes tinged orange/red and while receiving high doses of metrozonidazole he takes very large---despite not having eaten in a couple days and me thinking he has been 'cleaned out' before hand---reddish maroon poops) and the shedding issues.

I'll get some photos of him ASAP.

 

[Taterbug]

Has he been tested for adeno virus? It sounds like he has had some extensive works ups so far.

 

[SpiritScale]

To my knowledge he has not, but it is a possibility that he is positive. We did have another untested dragon in the house (no symptoms though).
He wasn't poorly as a baby and up until he stopped eating was on track size, length and weight-wise. He is now small for his age (at least in terms of size) and has not grown in length but did (with a lot of force feedings in larger quantities) gain weight. Currently is 18.5-19 inches long, though I don't have an accurate weight on him---his last weight was up around 450g if memory serves but that was a while ago and he has gotten thinner since then.
He *did* have periods wherein he was less interested in foods as a baby, but never wherein he stopped eating completely and if he did have a slow down in his appetite it had (from what I recall) always a reason (be it a shed etc).

I will mention the adenovirus though to the vet.

 

[SpiritScale]

So weighed and measured him tonight.

He is 19 inches nose to tail and currently sitting at about 500g or so (so I was wrong about my previous 450g estimate but has gotten thinner statement) but he is full of food and I do honestly believe most of that weight is bloating or water weight in his gut.
I have no idea on his parents or his origins or even his exact hatchdate.

The photos are from tonight and about two weeks into me beginning to force feed him again after leaving him to his own devices for a bit (during which he pretty quickly lost the fat pads on his head and ribs became apparent, so began feeding him again). He has been bathed, watered and fed so is not wrinkly...but will be by tomorrow evening if I do not intervene.
He looks to be due to shed but am not optimistic because he has had 'missed sheds' for a lack of better description before.
I find it strange that he weighs so much yet has a small frame especially for his age IMO and honestly could do to put on some muscle mass yet has this big bloated gut (in spite of apparently clean tests and no abnormal blood or xray results).

Sorry about the quality btw---I don't have a camera and my phone is not the best with pictures.

 

[AHBD]

He looks over all pretty good. There is no droopy belly, he looks very well proportioned, and 19" and 500 grams falls into the acceptable average size of beardies. He looks good, just a bit tired, but I do understand that you're concerned. You say he's in brumation now ? And how long ago was he on the meds., and for how long ? I think you mentioned Flagyl....that can be very hard on their systems if given in a high dose. I think all beardies can look a bit wrinkly at times, so that's not a real concern. I think just ease off on the force feeding for a while and see how he does. By the way, has he ever had exposure to natural sun, and does he like being able to run around if given the chance ? Can you post a few pics of his set up ?

 

[SpiritScale]

I find though he gets bloated and looks tender/uncomfortable (he gets very upset if you try to touch his belly)---it is possible though that I'm just seeing things.

I'm in Quebec, Canada so no natural sun exposure right now----but in the summer he loves to sit in the sunshine when the patio door is open (with the screen door still closed of course) or go to sit out on the porch in a harness.
He is very fond of running around the house, especially in the summer when he's very active.

I *think* he's on/off semi-brumating because he does have some days that he sleeps away in his hammock or in one of his hide boxes.
There was a period in the summer where I could convince him to eat a hornworm or two every once in a while.

I will completely admit I am afraid to leave him alone because he looks very dehydrated (I do the skin pinch test and the skin does not snap back like it should) and tired if left to his own devices and only bathed once a week. We left him alone for a month once (with baths) and that's when we ended up with a thin, no fat pads left beardie.

I find he does much better (and his poops look better) when he is given a lot of benebac gel.

I can't remember exactly when his last dose of flagyl was (he was given some on an antibiotic-level dose and then the vet attempted two very high doses as an appetite stimulant)---but I believe it was in November.
Debating asking the vet to please get me some of the oxbow critical care (both the herbivore and the carnivore) as she didn't feel it necessary at the time (he's been eating baby food/pureed salad and whole crickets).

I'll get some pics of his set up later.

 

[AHBD]

If he's going through a semi brumation, then his behavior will naturally be sluggish as you've described. At the moment he looks to be a decent size/weight. We have to keep in mind that beardies, like all animals and humans, have different body types.....for example a man that is 5'7 and 140 lbs. may be as healthy or healthier than a 6'7 and 300 lb. man. Think of Asian people, very small on average, yet very healthy in general. So his size is not an indicator of his health as long as he's not emaciated, which he is no where near being. And the " skin pinch " test is not really accurate to assess the hydration status for beardies, they gain + lose weight quickly at times and have loose skin naturally. Some Benebac is good, but probably not every day. It's good that he likes hornworms, they contain a good amount of liquid, too. How many tests + trips to the vet and doses of different meds. would you say he's had in the last 4 months ? That could have had a negative impact on his appetite as well. [ And now it's naturally brumation time] It sounds like he is pretty active in the summer though.

 

[SpiritScale]

*UPDATE*

Lowan was at the vet's today---and is resting at home now comfortably so he's dodged the bullet. We were very lucky that a reptile-specialist vet happened to be visiting my clinic today and so my vet was able to ask for a second opinion.

His last weight in October in was 530g--currently 480g.

The vets both felt that he was actually very overweight but undermuscled (needing to build muscle and burn fat) and they would like to see him at least 80g lighter (at 400g). The plan is to bump his temps up to baby beardie basking heat levels and to cut back on both food and bathing to see if burning through his very large fat pads will stimulate him to want to eat (and to feel better).
He will be eating 5 ml of critical care (herbivore only) with 30 crickets blended in once a week. Baths are 2-3 times a week. I have the benebac gel as well.

In two weeks we are going to do another fecal test just to rule stuff out. It might take a couple tests (since he tends to poop only in his bath and that means we may have to do a colon flush---which has a bigger margin of error when tested (70% chance of detection vs much higher for normally collected stools).

 

[AHBD]

Well that's an interesting approach. I still think that his appetite may return once he's not forced to eat, but this method may do something to stimulate his natural appetite. I don't see any large fat pads.....although it won't hurt to lose 25-30 grams but I really don't think that's the problem. There are quite a few owners here [ including some of the mods. ] who have healthy, old beardies that are the size of Lowan and even bigger, but overall I do agree that a dragon on the lean side is better than too heavy. I don't see any real lack of muscle mass though...not sure where that idea is coming from. But I guess you'll have to see what happens, maybe he'll become more active + beardie -like. I'm thinking that all the months of testing, meds. + force feeding have caused him to become a bit unhappy and lethargic, dreading his next unpleasant experience and causing lack of appetite, but I don't think he is ready to be put to sleep. Hopefully he'll be a new man after this rigorous regimen. I do hope for the best for your buddy !! Please update along the way.

 

[Esther19]

How are you and Lowan doing? My girl always poos in the bath, too, but she makes bubbles before anything comes out. Does Lowan give you a sign that he is going to go? Perhaps you could pull him up out of the water and put a paper towel or something to catch the poo? Then he would be spared a colon flush, and you would be spared the expense.

 

[SpiritScale]

HE'S BEGUN EATING!! WOOT!

Lowan is now down around 415 grams. He looks great, poops look awesome, has begun shedding again and is more active. Now that he's beginning to want to eat (both veggies and insects, though only horns and silks for now) I am slowly trying to wean him off the syringe and get him 100% independent.
He still gets a soak and bath three times a week, temps are still at juvie/baby levels (I might just leave it as is even after he's 100% better) but is only getting the critical care 1-2 times a week (depends on if I feel he's had enough salad on his own). I do make a point to keep giving him benebac gel though (he really likes it and tries to eat the syringe).

So happy for my little man he can just be a regular happy beardie now, he's pretty much grown up and the plan with be to get him eating daily salad along with insects either in 1-2 feedings a week (I generally give him 3-4 big hornworms a week as he will not take crickets).
I can't remember the last time he was just eating by himself.

He doesn't know it yet---but he's got an 8x4x3 foot high cage on the way sometime this year :mrgreen:

 

[Esther19]

That's wonderful news! I'm so glad you let us know. You've done a great job with Lowan.

 

[AHBD]

I'm happy to hear it...happy for you and for Lowan. Hopefully he'll continue to improve.