Dead baby beardie

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ag201

Member
I recently got a beardie for my birthday, it was the healthiest looking one at PETCO (or at least I thought). It is about 3 to 4 inches long, so it’s very young, the lady at PETCO said that it was the youngest they ever got them. I bought a 20 gallon tank to start off with, a 75 watt heaving lamp, that had a built in UV light. I use reptile carpet for the bottom, have 2 logs, one is like a cave, and the other is a stick, and a hammock. The food and water bowls are also filled, and he does have a hot and cold side.

He started to shed about 2 weeks ago, and when he did he got really tired. Last week, he pooped out a hard yellow substance, and I read that that meant he was dehydrated, so I got a spray bottle to spray him. He seemed to like it. When he started to shed he got really tired and wouldn’t eat in his own... he really hasn’t eaten (I feed him the pellet fortified food). When I would go to pick him up, he would wake up for a moment then fall back asleep, but, he would tighten his grip on me when I would put him back in his tank and try to stay on.

This morning I woke up to turn in his light, and he was dead... his stomach is caved in, and his belly is black, same wiht around his mouth. He was half on his back, but his leg was stopping him from being completely on his back. I’m not sure what happened, yesterday was the first day he was kind of active... and was the only day I didn’t get to hold him?

His name is Elliot and I’m really upset he died, I’m going to really miss him, but I want to know what happened so I don’t kill another beardie, thanks, I’ve had him for about a month
 

Martadragon017

Hatchling Member
I'm so sorry for your loss. :( Did the 'heating lamp' emit light? Bearded dragons need a basking lamp that emits light and also a separate quality tube UVB light, although I do recall hearing of a mercury vapor bulb which emits both. Another thing is his diet. Do you mean that you only fed him pellets? Beardies need live food such as crickets, dubia roaches, BSFL, etc., along with some fresh greens, veggies, and occasional fruits. Pellet are not an acceptable staple feeder. Also a possibility is that he came to you sick, as that seems quite common among pet stores. And don't blame yourself to much for this, pet stores often give out really bad advice just to sell their products, or because they don't know better.
 

Ag201

Member
Original Poster
Thanks for the help. The box says basking light... sorry, I’m not good with words?... He wasn’t eating so I tried to force feed him, when I did, I got him to eat a little bit of a salad, but he would spit out the fortified food. Other people in my family have bearded dragons (they are 3 years old) and have been living off of the fortified food and crickets once a month, so I thought it would be okay to do the same...
 

lizardmom25

Hatchling Member
If the box only says basking light, he wasn't getting any UVB. That, combined with lack of proper food was the issue. Baby beardies should be eating somewhere on the order of 10-20 insects at least 2, preferably 3 times a day. Those prepackaged diets are basically garbage. If you attempt again with another baby you will need to get a good UVB tube light (reptisun or arcadia t5 tube at least 10.0), and LOTS of feeder insects, and vitamin supplements.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Oh, I'm so sorry, you got very bad advice from the employee at Petco no doubt. That's awful.

I'm pretty much certain that he died of starvation/dehydration because you were feeding him the pellets in a bowl and had water in a bowl...That's not what Bearded Dragons eat, especially babies/juveniles that are under a year old, they must eat tons and tons of live insects every single day, on average babies/juveniles eat between 40-60 appropriately sized live insects every single day. They don't and won't eat those damn pellets, nor any other "commercial" food. They do most all of their growing and developing during their first year of life, and as a result they must be given at least 2, 3 is better, live insect feeding sessions every single day, each session lasting 10-15 minutes, where you give them AS MANY LIVE INSECTS AS THEY WANT. You have to do these live insect feeding sessions 3 times a day up until they are 8 months old, then scale it back to 2 sessions a day, then when they reach a year of so old they typically switch themselves over to eating more fresh greens and veggies with only 1 live insect feeding session a day. You also must dust all of the live insects from 1 of the sessions per day in a Calcium powder and do this 5 days a week, and in a Multivitamin powder 3 days a week, that's for the rest of their lives. You should also put a salad of FRESH greens and veggies that are appropriate for Dragons in their tank every single day...Once again, because they do most of their growing and developing during their first year of life, most Dragons who are under a year or so old will not eat much, if any greens or veggies, some don't eat any, some just nibble on them, and then there is a minority that eat a lot. Regardless you must give them a salad of FRESH, healthy greens and veggies every single day, after they have their first live insect feeding session of the day, so they can get used to seeing them, and are able to pick at them and get used to them, and like I said, at a year or so old they'll switch themselves over from 90% live insects and 10% fresh greens/veggies to almost the exact opposite...

Commercial Bearded Dragon "foods", like pellets, are not usually eaten by Dragons at all, especially not at all by babies or juveniles, because once again, they need tons and tons of live insects every single day. They wouldn't even know what those pellets were unless you force-fed them. I've used them before to make a slurry to feed to a sick dragon, but that's a totally different situation, as I'm talking about feeding a Dragon who has stopped eating on their own, and feeding them a liquid slurry of soaked pellets, baby food, pedialyte, and a pinch of calcium and multivitamin that is mixed in a blender, and feeding it to them with an oral syringe, and this is only a very short-term thing. You cannot have a Bearded Dragon and not feed them a healthy, adequate staple insect that is ALIVE. You cannot EVER feed them already dead or "freeze-dried" insects, as they obviously contain ZERO water, and since they get most all of their hydration from live insects and fresh greens/veggies that they eat, they'll die of dehydration if you feed them pellets and/or freeze-dried insects or veggies. These commercial foods are a total waste of money, and again, this is why your Dragon's "stomach was caved in", he starved and dehydrated himself to death. Not your fault, please don't blame yourself, but rather learn from your mistakes so the next time you'll know exactly what to do...

Bearded Dragons for the most part DO NOT DRINK ANY WATER, AS THEY HAVE NO CONCEPT OF WHAT "STANDING WATER" IS, BECAUSE THERE IS VERY LITTLE TO NO STANDING WATER IN THE AUSTRALIAN DESERT WHERE THEY COME FROM NATURALLY. As a result, Dragons get most all of their hydration from the live insects and the fresh greens and veggies that they eat daily. Some Dragons will lick up a little water from being misted, or they'll occasionally drink water from a bath or a bowl, but that's the minority, most Dragons will never really drink water from a bowl or bath, and they certainly cannot survive on the little bit of water they lick up from being "misted"; they are Desert Reptiles, not Tropical Reptiles, there's a huge difference. HUGE. When a Bearded Dragon stops eating/loses their appetite, for whatever reason, say they are sick or injured, or you have them under inappropriate lighting or temperature zones, then you must drip water from an oral syringe or eyedropper directly on their snouts and let them lick it off, drip, lick, drip, lick, etc. and let them have as much water as they'll lick off, and you must do this several times throughout the day, as they are getting no hydration if they are not eating their live insects and fresh greens/veggies.

****Most Dragon owners, especially if the Dragon is under a year old, order their live staple insects online, in bulk. This is because #1)They eat so many of them per day, and #2) It is obviously not economical to buy that many live staple insects in a pet shop, as their prices are absolutely ridiculous. Also, shops like Petco and Petsmart do not have any variety of adequate staple insects for Bearded Dragons, in fact the only staple insect that they sell that is appropriate for a Dragon are Crickets. That's it. You cannot feed a Dragon mealworms as a staple insect because they cannot properly digest their shells, and they don't contain nearly enough protein, they are almost all fat and hard shell...THE ADEQUATE, LIVE STAPLE INSECTS FOR DRAGONS INCLUDE: Crickets, several species of Roaches, including Dubia Roaches, Silkworms, ButterWorms, and then Phoenix Worms/Black Soldier Fly Larva (BSFL)/ReptiWorms/CalciWorms/NutriGrubs (all the same thing, just different brand names)...Just as an example for you, Petco sells a container of 25 CalciWorms, most of which are tiny little small sized worms, for $4.25...A baby Dragon can eat 20 size large CalciWorms in one sitting, 3 times a day...I order mine from www.dubiaroaches.com because they are the cheapest place I've found and they ship in 2 days, have auto ship, and they never ship me any dead worms...I order 1,000 size Large each month, only size Large CalciWorms (they call them BSFL) for $25 shipped!!! You see why you have to order in bulk online...

Now the other issue you have is that you had no UVB light at all for your Dragon, again the Petco employee sold you a Basking Bulb that says it emits "UV Light", but that isn't UVB light, it's UVA light, or just regular light...Being Desert Reptiles, Dragons need 13-14 hours every single day of strong, adequate UVB light from a long (at least 18" or longer) UVB tube that is inside a long, fluorescent tube fixture that has a reflector inside it that sits behind the UVB tube; And their long UVB tube must be at least a 10% UVB Output tube, or at least a "10.0" UVB tube, a lower UVB output like a 5.0 tube is not adequate...There are several off brands of UVB tubes that must be avoided, including Zilla, All Living Things, ReptileOne, and Trixie, as they are weak and all emit harmful light rays that seem to always cause severe eye damage. You need to buy either a Reptisun 10.0 or an Arcadia brand UVB tube that is at the very least 18" long, 22" long or longer is better.

There are 2 strengths of long UVB tubes, the much weaker T8 and the much stronger T5. The main differences are: The weaker T8 tubes cannot sit on top of the mesh lid to the tank, they are too weak, so they must be strapped to the underside of the mesh lid using zip ties, wire, twine, etc., while the stronger T5 UVB tubes can sit on top of the mesh lid. #2) The T8 tubes must be within at least 6" of the Dragons Basking spot/Platform, while the stronger T5 UVB tubes must only be within about 10" of the Dragon's Basking spot/platform. #3) The T8 UVB tubes must be replaced once every 6 months on the dot, because they stop emitting any UVB light at 6 months old, while the T5 tubes only need to be replaced once every 12 months. Obviously you want to buy a T5 UVB tube that is at least a 10% or 10.0 T5 tube and fixture.

Before you get another Dragon, you absolutely must buy a proper UVB tube...The most common reason that Dragons lose their appetites and become lethargic is because they are under inadequate UVB lights or the UVB lights are mounted incorrectly, too far away, obstructed, etc. or they are too old. WITHOUT 13-14 HOURS PER DAY, EVERY DAY, UNDER A STRONG, ADEQUATE UVB TUBE, BEARDED DRAGONS CANNOT ABSORB ANY OF THE CALCIUM THAT THEY EAT/INGEST IN THEIR FOOD OR IN THE SUPPLEMENT POWDER YOU GIVE THEM, AND THEY DEVELOP A CALCIUM DEFICIENCY AND METABOLIC BONE DISEASE (MBD) VERY QUICKLY. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF EQUIPMENT YOU WILL BUY YOUR DRAGON.

Amazon.com is by far the cheapest place to order a long T5 UVB tube and fixture with a reflector for it. You can buy a 22" Reptisun T5HO UVB tube for about $25 shipped on Amazon.com. They also sell one particular fixture for it that is 24" long, is rated for a T5 tube (rated for 24 watts), and includes a reflector inside it for about $28 shipped. They do sell a couple of fixtures that are 24" fixtures that are T5-rated for a couple bucks less, but they do not include a reflector, and this is not optional. So before you get another Dragon, you must get a proper T5 UVB tube and fixture.

And also under a bright-white colored Basking Bulb (never use ANY colored bulbs for a Dragon, like red, blue, purple, black, etc.), that is the correct wattage to keep the Basking Spot/Platform Surface Temperature within the correct range, which for a Dragon under a year old is between 105-110 degrees F, and for a Dragon that is over a year or so old they tend to like their Basking Spot Surface Temperature a tiny bit lower, between 100-105 degrees F. This is the temperature that will determine whether or not they can properly digest the food that they eat, and is the most critical temperature zone inside their tank. That being said, YOU CANNOT MEASURE THEIR BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM SURFACE TEMPERATURE WITH ANY TYPE OF STICK-ON THERMOMETER!!! Stick-On Thermometers only measure Air/Ambient Temperature, not Surface Temps, so you absolutely must have either a Temperature Gun or a Digital Thermometer that has a Probe on a Wire that you can set directly on the Basking Spot/Platform. Then they also must have a Cool Side to the tank, the side opposite of the Hot Side, which is the side that has both of the lights overtop of it and contains the Basking Spot/Platform. The Cool Side Air/Ambient Temperature should be between 75-80 degrees F maximum, no higher, as they must always have a place to go and cool down.

You're trying to replicate natural sunlight over the Hot Side of the tank as closely as possible. You do this by putting the long, strong UVB tube over the Hot Side of the tank, and then putting the bright-white colored Basking Bulb right alongside it, so that both lights are "sharing" the top of the Hot Side of the tank. Then you put the Dragon's Basking Spot/Platform within the Hot Side of the tank, and directly underneath both lights, so your Dragon will get both lights at the same time while basking. BOTH LIGHTS MUST BE ON EVERY DAY FOR 13-14 HOURS. No nighttime heat source is needed at all as long as the tank Air/Ambient Temperature is at least 65 degrees. The Australian Desert is both PITCH-BLACK and COOL/COLD at nighttime, and as such Dragons must have a nighttime tank Air/Ambient Temperature that is considerably cooler than their daytime temperatures in order to sleep soundly and allow their bodies to rest and recover. Most people's homes are at least 63 degrees or above at nighttime, and as such most people don't need any type of nighttime heat source for their Dragons. A nighttime temperature between 65-72 degrees F is perfect.


If you had been feeding your Dragon live insects several times a day, then I'd be telling you that the issue, or main issue was a total lack of UVB light, let alone strong, adequate UVB light. However, even if you had had a long, very strong, T5 10.0 UVB tube over your Dragon, he still would not have been eating those pellets, at least not enough to sustain him, and he'd be getting little to no hydration from being misted, and he probably did not drink much, if any water from the water bowl...And since he had a "caved-in" stomach and a black beard, it's pretty clear that he died of starvation and dehydration...This isn't your fault, you were given horrible advice, really you were given no advice at all that was good...And this is unfortunately a very common issue, and it happens all the time. And not just at Petco, but at PetSmart, Petland, and tons of small, independent pet shops and even "reptile specialty" shops. The employees get no training or education at all about the different species of reptiles, birds, etc. that they sell, and with reptiles this just doesn't ever go well, especially with Desert Reptiles that have such specific diet, lighting, and temperature requirements...I'm so sorry, but now you'll know a lot more, and you can ask use ANY questions you have at any time, send PM's to any of us at any time, etc.
 

lizardmom25

Hatchling Member
You are 100% correct. The lack of education is so infuriating. Fortunately, my Petsmart has ONE employee that knows what she is doing with reptiles, but she has more experience with geckos. Other than that, they have NO CLUE and just go by their printed care sheets, which are terrible.

Our petco is actually MUCH better. They give much better care advice and offer a 30 day health guarantee. If your pet needs to go to the vet for any reason in the first 30 days, if you go their vet, they pay 100% of the cost, and they use the only vet in town with any real reptile knowledge.

Another big part of the issue is that many pet stores don't carry the products needed to adequately care for reptiles and are unwilling to recommend anything they don't sell.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
You're so right...the real issue is they are "Franchises", and there is not one bit of consistency between one Petco or PetSmart and the next. They get no regional or district training at all, so the advice a customer is going to get is totally dependent on whether that particular store has an employee with PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with parrots, specific reptile breeds, fish, etc. That just shouldn't be how it is, these stores sell live animals and they treat it like they're selling inanimate objects, like furniture or electronics.

And then yes, you have the second issue, which is ALL of the reptile equipment manufacturers #1) Sell too many different lights and other pieces of equipment, all labeled for the same reptile species, and #2) Most of the lights they label as adequate for specific reptile species are totally inadequate for that species, even the ones that have photos of that specific reptile on the damn box...

This is one of many first-time Dragon owners that I've seen lose their first baby because they had no idea that Dragons needed to be fed a ton of live insects every single day, or that they didn't drink standing water, but rather got their hydration from the live insects and fresh greens/veggies that they eat daily. Instead, they were told that "Bearded Dragon Pellets" or already dead insects would be fine, and then the poor dragon starves/dehydrates itself to death because they don't even know that the pellets are food. And I promise you that many pet shop employees just go right along with a customer who asks them "Can I just feed the baby Beardie these pellets?", because they know that many people wouldn't every buy a pet that required them to buy hundreds of live insects every month. They don't care, they just agree with them to sell them the Dragon and the equipment. It's disgusting...
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Oh I am so sorry for your loss of little Elliot. :cry: He was probably not real healthy when you
got him but most likely dehydrated when you got him or had high parasite levels which were
causing him to feel ill, too.
My sincere condolences to you.


Tracie
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Poor little guy.

I recommend before you buy another , that you strip everything out the tank (right back to bare timber or glass) , sterilize it thoroughly ( I recommend you get a small bottle of F10SC
http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/F10D , is expensive for a small bottle, BUT a small bottle goes a very long way because it is SUPER CONCENTRATED and you are using only a few milliltres / litre per spray bottle full), and a 1L F10 spray bottle, then add 2.5ml of the F10SC and make up to 1L and you are good to go).

His hide and water and food dish can be F10ed too. This all just in case he came with a desease which contributed to his death ( unfortunately pet shops and lizard farms are only interested in $ and give little or no attention to the health of their breeding stock or their offspring and often have large number of hatchlings in very small tanks in horrible conditions , only takes one sick lizard and they are soon all sick (and dying).

Ignore the advise given by the know nothing staff at the pet shop, it's AWAYS BAD advise and they are going to try to sell stuff that is going to make max profit for the shop and max commission for them.

F10 I use us 1 part in 125 water , which is double strength, and i simply spray any surfaces that need to be decontaminated / sterilized , let them airdry and they are then good to use. Works well on carpet and chairs and bed linen too (is safe).

Then I recommend
>> go to Ebay and buy a bunch of these : https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4x-LCD-Digital-Temperature-Thermometer-Fridge-Freezer-Aquarium-Fish-Tank-Reptile-/391259141696?hash=item5b18dcb640:g , the thermometers supplied in kits are always worthlessly inaccurate , the correct temperatures from UNCOLOURED LIGHTS ( MVB, halogen or incandescent basking globes is essential ).

Aim is NOT MORE THAN 42 degC at the basking spot.
A warm zone at about 35 degC (is a dragon's preferred body temperature) and cool zone at about 28 degC.
Overnight no colder than 24 degC for a hatchling.

>> invest in a domestic (indoor / outdoor) par38 halogen or incandescent spot globe ( maybe 80W
http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/conventional-lamps-and-tubes/incandescent-lamps/reflector-nr-r-par-e-a-p-pc-shape/par38/923810544279_EU/product or it's equivalent if you are in the USA and running 110VAC 60Hz rather than 230VAC 50Hz ) this is the new basking globe.

A nice mercury vapour globe is probably going Ok for such a small tank , Arcadia have 80W MVBs which are excellent
https://www.reptiles.swelluk.com/arcadia-d3-uv-basking-lamp/ see UV flux map for a 100W version
arcadia_chart_for_100_W_mvb.png

Aiming for 180 to 200 microW UVB / sq.cm at the basking spot and about 100 microW UVB / sq.cm elsewhere.
The advantage of a MVB is it's an all in one light source giving heat, nature white or yellowish light, UVA and UVB all from globe.
Disadvantages of a MVB are
-- it can't be dimmed
-- it gives a focused beam of UV that is not spread out over a large area in a viv.
-- it hard to optimize the heat and UV from a single all in one globe.

A better solution is a par38 incandescent / halogen spot + a T5HO 12%UVB tube (in a reflector hood mounted UNDER the mesh lid.
See this for comparison of different UV sources : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611&p=1811914#p1811914

So essentially sort out sterilizing the tank and furnature, remove any substrate (that stuff goes in the bin) , then sort out the temperatures and lighting BEFORE you get a new pet dragon.

Then study the caresheet and make sure you have a good source of LIVE suitable sized insects and suppliments.
Suitable insects for are hatchling are :
>> Black soldier fly lavae (and the flies too)
>> blow fly gents (and the flies too)
>> silkworms
>> suitable sized gutloaded calcium dusted crickets or roaches or locusts)
Other feeders ARE NOT SUITABLE for a hatchling as a more than an occasional treat.

>> Repashi GrubPie made up as paste is OK as a back up.

Dried insects are not suitable.
Canned insects are not suitable.
Pellets are not suitable as a staple.
Cat and dog food are NEVER suitable.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Still Needs Help

Latest resources

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Go88 là một trong những nhà cái cá cược trực tuyến hàng đầu với danh tiếng vững chắc trong cộng đồng người chơi.
Website: https://https://appgo88.link/
Tag: #appgo88link #go88link #Game_Go88 #Game_bài_Go88 #Cổng_game_Go88 #Tài_xỉu_Go88 #Nạp_tiền_Go88 #Rút_tiền_Go88 #play_Go88
Website:
https://smartcity.bandung.go.id/member/bsc3090527795d
Mirage came out of brumation on April 26. He was doing great. On May 2 he started acting funny. We just redid his tank, and he keeps going into one of his hides. He just lays there. He shows no intrest in food. HELP!
is tape safe for fixing something in my leopard geckos hide?
Day 3 of brumation. It's a struggle. I really miss my little guy. 😔
Mirage entered brumation yesterday, I'm gonna miss hanging out with my little guy.

Forum statistics

Threads
156,229
Messages
1,259,206
Members
76,144
Latest member
ricepuritytesttoo
Top Bottom