Cousin Went To Jail, Caring for his Dragons

[Parahybana]

What's up guys!

Thanks for helping me out. My cousin went to jail for seven months so I am caring for his two bearded dragons. I have a tremendous amount of experience caring for exotic and domestic animals (including herps), but I haven't actually cared for bearded dragons so I need some help.

I have known the two since they were babies so I am very familiar with them. The problem is two-fold:

One, they have always been housed together (they are approximately five years old), and have never had any issues (they take turns being the leader based on my observation and take turns laying on top of the other). However, I know they are primarily solitary animals and so I am not sure what I should do.

Two, they are housed in an aquarium that is way too small for them and I would like to set-up a better environment for them. I cleaned out the entire aquarium (the conditions were very poor), bought light timers (to simulate night/day more accurately and because I am not used to turning lights on and off), and been providing a 70% diet of greens/veggies and 30% protein (mostly crickets but I am wondering if I dubia roaches are better) and just started giving them warm baths periodically to ensure they are hydrated.

What I don't know what to do is house them. How should I be housing them and in what enclosure(s) should I build? Should they stay together? I know sand is a terrible substrate but the opinions on substrate seem so varied, I can't figure out the best one.

Any advice, help or suggestions are appreciated! Thanks

EDIT: Forgot the pictures.

 

[icelore]

IF they've been together for a while, there are people who say you can leave them. On the other hand, I'd separate them, because it only takes on "oops" moments and you have a damaged or dead dragon.

As for enclosure sizes, the minimum size needed for one adult dragon is a 40g breeder. Each dragon would breed its own UVB light, either a Reptisun 10.0 tube OR a mercury vapor bulb. Basking spot should be 100, warm half of the tank around 90, and the cool half a bit under 80.

Your diet sounds fine, assuming the greens you are feeding are dragon-safe. Dubia or crickets doesn't make much of a difference as long as you are dusting with calcium a few times a week. The more varied diet they have, the better it is in the end.

Lastly, as for substrate, the consensus is anything loose (sand, crushed walnut, corn cob, etc) is bad, as they can inject it. Anything solid (slate or stone tile, repticarpet, even newspaper or paper towels) is much safer and easier to clean.

Your images aren't displaying, but I look forward to seeing the dragons you are baby sitting!

 

[Parahybana]

They have been together for five years (as far as I know, have never been separated since they were babies). I am concerned about separating them simply because they always seem to be together but if it will be better for them in the long run then I certainly will separate them.

Fixed the picture situation.

 

[BrianB]

First, I'll state that except for one breeding pair and one other odd case, I've always kept all of my dragons separately. While they have a lot of social behaviors and can sometimes bond with one another to an extent, I think they do better caged separately, as they simply can't get the same amount of spacing from each other indoors in cages as they can in the wild. Basically, there's no "escape" option from one another that's far enough away to relieve stress on them when needed.

That said. there are a few things to consider if you're going to separate them:

First, will your cousin keep them separated when he gets them back? Will he have space for two enclosures? Does he simply prefer to have them together? If he's going to put them back together after he gets them back, then you should keep them together. If they're kept separate for a while then put back together, things may not be as copacetic they are now.

Second, what are their sexes? If they're a male/male pair, and your cousin will not keep them separated after getting them back, then just leave them together. I wouldn't want to reintroduce two males after they've been separated for several months. Although males don't usually get along, I've had hatchlings that were kept together for a long time because they were runts, and even after growing out, they were fine together. When left out together, they'd go to each other with no conflict. So, it's sometimes possible for males to get along, but it's far, far from the norm. (In my case, the dragons didn't reach sexually mature size until far later than normal, as they were runts of the litter.) If you have a male/female pair, then you should be prepared for eggs if you keep them together. You'll need to take good care of the female before and after breeding and make sure that she has a place to lay eggs in the enclosure when the time comes. If you have a pair of females that get along, then they may also have problems with reintroduction if your cousin decides to put them together again when he gets them back, but not as severe as with males. Female dominance displays tend to be more subtle, but they can still lead to a stressed dragon, which can lead to health problems.

Third, separating them could cause stress to the dragons. This really depends on the dragons. I think in the majority of cases, giving them each their own space is stress relief, but I did have a pair that were housed together, where the male became super agitated after the female died. He ran around bobbing continuously, and died from the stress the same night, before I could get him to a vet. (I think some sedatives would have helped, but the only vet in the area the would see reptiles wouldn't see him for two weeks. . . .I'm glad I have a vet that actually cares about the animals' welfare now.)

As far as caging options, there are a few, depending on budget. The minimum size for a single adult is about 3' by 1.5' (4.5 sq ft), or the floor space of a 40 breeder tank. PetCo regularly runs sales on tanks for a dollar a gallon. So, you could pick up a 40 breeder on sale for forty bucks. Toss on a screen lid (order online for a better price) and some lights, and you're good to go. ZooMed makes some hangers for their dome lights that let you suspend the light over the cage. If you mount the UVB light internally and hang the heat light, you'll have easier access to the cage for maintenance, without the worry of moving a screen around with lights on it with a dragon in the tank. Of course, you can probably make your own light hanger easier, but hanging is not a bad way to go with a fish tank type setup. Option B is more expensive: Exo Terra makes glass terrariums that have swing out front doors. These give you better access. They have a 36x18x18 and a 36x18x12. Either will work, but the 18 high will give the dragons a bit more climbing height. They don't need much, but climbing up on something like the driftwood in their current setup does give some exercise. The drawback of the Exo Terra cages is that you'd be dropping about $170 per cage on someone else's pets. Option C is to build something like a Crossfire cage, which has plans linked somewhere on here. It's cheaper than option B, but you'll need to be at least a little handy. I'd personally go with 36x24 floors for single dragons both to save space and weight. The advantage is front opening, good heat retention, and stack-ability. If you decide to keep them together, I'd suggest a 48x24 floor space, and just go with option C.

Edited to add: If you do keep them together and move them to a larger enclosure, keep a very close eye on them as they settle in, as this will be a new territory, and the old pecking order may be disturbed.

 

[BrianB]

Also, consider picking up an IR temp gun to check temps. The dial type thermometers are notoriously unreliable. You can get one for $30 from the link below. (I have the old PE1, which was the TG1's predecessor, and it's been running fine for over ten years.)

http://tempgun.com/

 

[Taterbug]

You can also consider a very large plastic tote you want to ensure it it the same foot print as a cage and reasonably tall. A UVB hood can rest on the lip of the tub and a clamp on dome bulb can hold the heat bulb. It's not very attractive or versatile (I love my crossfire based cage) but will do the job. This is also only if you don't have other pets or family members that need to be kept out of the cage.

 

[icelore]

In regards to what the other posters said about what your cousin will do once he gets them back is right. They aren't your animals, and there's no point in changing their set up around if they aren't going to stay that way.

From the pictures you posted though, that whole "always together" deal doesn't look like friendship. When dragons sit on top of each other like that, it's dominance behavior. The one on top is trying to prevent the one on bottom from receiving heat and UV to get a one-up on them. They aren't cuddling or being nice, or anything like that. One is trying to use ll the resources for him/herself.

Also, if that's a UV tube mounted in the fluorescent fixture, it needs to be down in the tank (you can use command sticky hooks to hang it on the glass). Having it above the screen prevents a large chunk of the good rays getting in. Also, assuming it's a Reptisun 10.0, they need to be able to get within 6in of it to be healthy, so it needs to be over their basking area, not on the other side of the tank.

 

[Parahybana]

I think my cousin will keep them separate if I explain to him that their attempts at dominance over one another are causing them both too much stress and they will live longer separated. He loves them very much and is a kind person so I am sure he will listen to me. He wanted me to find a larger tank to house both of them in but I think a tank of that size will take up more room than two 40 gallon breeders will. If I were to get a separate 40 gallon breeder tank, is the one I have now large enough for the other dragon? I suppose I will look up the dimensions of a 40 gallon breeder tank and measure the dimensions of the current enclosure.

I am thinking I will switch both of them to tiles, add some hammocks and basking spot, mount the lights inside and add a hideout for each of them. I will see if I can find a good deal on two digital thermometer/hydrometers online after I find an affordable second tank.

I will post some pictures after I get it all set-up hopefully in the next week (if anyone is interested).

Thanks for everyone's advice. If anyone has anything else to add, please feel free. I will continue to check the thread.

 

[Parahybana]

Also, consider picking up an IR temp gun to check temps. The dial type thermometers are notoriously unreliable. You can get one for $30 from the link below. (I have the old PE1, which was the TG1's predecessor, and it's been running fine for over ten years.)

http://tempgun.com/

Should I get a temp gun that I can use on both tanks instead of the digital thermometer/hydrometer things? I suppose since they are desert animals I really just want as little as humidity as possible?

 

[icelore]

A 40g breeder is 36" x 18" x 16". They are an acceptable size for an adult dragon and don't have a huge footprint. Eventually, if your cousin gets matching sized tanks, you can also put them in shelves so one is stacked over the other, which looks nice and saves space. The plan you have for a set up sounds really nice though!

The tank size/price is usually workable, it's providing UBV bulbs for two dragons that is pricy. At $50-60 bucks a pop for one bulb, replaced twice yearly...that gets expensive. Honestly that's the only reason I don't have a second beardie!

You can use a digital thermometer with a probe or a temp gun, it's just personal preference. If you look under aquatic supplies on eBay, you can get a digital therm for $7-8. I just bought a new one a few weeks ago that way. The high heat in the tank usually keeps the humidity down pretty low, so generally that isn't an issue. At long as the humidity isn't super high over a long period of time, they will be fine.

I look forward to seeing what you do with them.

 

[icelore]

Here's a listing on eBay for digital thermometers if you're interested. If you're patient you can get them for super cheap. Don't worry if they're for fishtanks, they work just the same.

There are a couple that are "Buy It Now" (immediate purchase) for under $2.50 if you are willing to wait for the free shipping from Hong Kong. I just bought another one so I have a back up handy. XD

 

[BrianB]

You can also usually pick up digital thermometers in Wal Mart for about six or seven bucks. They have little gray ones that have a probe. They're basically the same thing the reptile supply companies are now selling as an option for reptiles.

Regarding humidity: In most areas, normal household humidity is fine for beardies. In fact, it's something most care sheets neglect to mention in detail. Basically, they don't like it swampy, but they don't need it bone dry. The heat lamps tend to dry out the cage, so as long as the cage has good air flow and you don't have a large surface area water dish in the cage, they should be fine.

 

[Taterbug]

personally I like temp guns because they are quick and I can take multiple readings in each tanks, and have four tanks that need checked. It also doubles as a cat toy in our house :roll: (the laser dot).

 

[Parahybana]

I found a 36''x18''x16'' for ~$100 (average price I assume). The current tank is 48''x13''x18''. Can I keep the smaller one in the longer but more narrow tank (48x13) and place the larger guy in the 36x18? In 2-3 months I can afford a better second breeder tank (so I will have two 36x18).

 

[BrianB]

As long as the smaller dragon isn't more than 17 or 18 inches overall length, the 48x13 should be OK, if not ideal. Edit: Also, they've been living in that cage for five years, so I don't think a month or three is going to make a huge difference either way.