Confused after vet visit about Calcium

[jkratman]

Hi,

I finally took George to the vet for a wellness check. The Vet I took him to has a very distinguished background (VERY VERY) and I liked her a lot. But she recommended something I've never heard before and I'd like some opinions, please.

George has a t5 reptisum uvb tube. He's two years old and I've been giving him reptical with d3 once a week. The vet thinks I should continue to do that once a week, but she wants me to give him calcium WITHOUT D3 on all other days.

Has anyone else heard of this? When he was small, I gave him the D3 calcium daily, but I always understood that it was unnecessary when they reach adulthood.

Again, VERY distinguished vet, but I'm a little nervous about this.

Thanks,

John

 

[Taterbug]

You have a good lamp that puts out sunlight levels of UVB, this will allow him to synthesize plenty of D3 in his skin. the skin won't make too much D3 but supplements might.

However calcium can't be made in the body and as he eats insects he will slowly get out of balance for the ratio of minerals in his body. Calcium is for more than bones so even when they are done growing animals need a consistent and balanced calcium intake.

Insects are almost always high in phosphorus and low in calcium; both are needed in a balance (dusting does this) to
keep the body healthy. Did she specify how to supply the calcium, and details about how to go about his veggie portion of the diet?

 

[JessPets]

Hmmm, from what I understand, if you use a mercury vapor bulb, you use calcium without d3, but if you use a reputisun type bulb you DO use d3. Maybe i just have it backwards, but I'm pretty sure that is correct

 

[JessPets]

Here is a thread about it: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=210333

 

[jkratman]

Thanks, Jesspets and TaterBug, as always, I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Tater-- the vet said that she wanted me to dust the veg daily with calcium WITHOUT D3. Her thoughts are that the calcium is needed daily to prevent an overload of phosphorus and subsequent kidney damage to the dragon.

She says she's seen instances where owners do EVERYTHING wrong and the dragon thrives; she's also seen instances where people do everything RIGHT and get a very sick dragon. Her take is the daily calcium is important to balance out the phosphorus in the veggies.

She did tell me that if it "puts the dragon off his greens" that I can really powder up the insects (20 BSF every 2-3 days). she stated emphatically that she'd rather see him eat the greens without calcium than not eat them at all.

What are your thoughts? Any danger in that much calcium, provided it is not supplemented with D3?

Thanks.

 

[Taterbug]

The logic is that low output bulbs (T8s including reptisun) are about like being in the shade or an overcast day. They are good, but maybe not enough for lizards adapted to almost worship the sun like dragons are.

T5 bulbs (including reptisun) are several times stronger than the older T8 and can match the strength of the sun in mid morning when dragons would be basking. MVB are similarly strong.

When and how to use calcium w/ or w/out D3 is still a pretty fuzzy topic, even to experts. Ideally the body should make enough; but in captivity and depending on the equipment used more or less supplementation is needed. (Just like if I went outside enough I wouldn't need D3 supplements)

 

[Taterbug]

Your vet might not mind if you ring up with your concerns and give better answers but from what I understand...

Excessive calcium is passed as waste. It needs D3 to pass effectively through the intestinal lining so if the supplement doesn't have D3 he body -should- be gathering what it needs and passing the extra. Too much of any thing can be bad, calcium and phosphorus interact with other minerals (like iron and magnesium) as well as fats and so on. It gets complicated fast.

The best is to try and get a rounded diet (I try to have several colors of salad items to try and hit the nutritional spectrum) and err to the side of calcium since calcium deficiency is a really common problem in exotic pets.

Not all veggies have poor ratios, but a lot do. If you calculate it out carefully you can make salads that don't need dusted, but I personally just try to get close and add a multi vitamin+calcium. Pet dragons have a limited range of foods often and this helps balance out nutritional holes.

 

[kingofnobbys]

The logic is that low output bulbs (T8s including reptisun) are about like being in the shade or an overcast day. They are good, but maybe not enough for lizards adapted to almost worship the sun like dragons are.

T5 bulbs (including reptisun) are several times stronger than the older T8 and can match the strength of the sun in mid morning when dragons would be basking. <<<< this might be the case where most beardie keepers are located ie latitudes north of 40degrees, but definitely not the case in the natural range of central and rankins bearded dragons between 25 and 15 degrees south latitude especially in the late spring thro to early autumn (when beardies are most active , breeding and hatchlings are showing up) , UVI in excess of 13 are normal on a sunny and even on overcast days (the clouds don't impede the UVA and UVB much).
MVB are similarly strong. <<<< MVBs are closest to natural sunlight in UVA and UVB flux but still a poor substitute cf natural tropical sunlight.

When and how to use calcium w/ or w/out D3 is still a pretty fuzzy topic, even to experts. Ideally the body should make enough; but in captivity and depending on the equipment used more or less supplementation is needed. (Just like if I went outside enough I wouldn't need D3 supplements)

 

[kingofnobbys]

If he's a very competent / experienced herp vet and he knows exactly what your UVA and UVB source is and how you've got the tank set up , as well as the lighting schedule you have established, I'd follow his advise wrt Ca powder usuage frequency on the bugs.

As already said , excess calcium will simply be excreted and it's going to be very hard to give too much artificial D3.

 

[BriGecko]

This helped me a lot. I need to switch to calcium without D3, too, and alternate between with D3 and without D3.

 

[AHBD]

I wanted to post this link to an article by Allen Repashy on understanding how too much calcium, with or without D3 can be harmful to our reptiles. Scroll down to section 3+4, but the entire article is very interesting. This info should be a sticky IMO, since there are so many inquiries about supplemental dusting.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjP2vLQyIjPAhVCkh4KHcpaDYwQFgghMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reptilesmagazine.com%2FSupplemental-Nutrition-for-Your-Reptiles%2F&usg=AFQjCNFJClT6zTbvO4Uk-tNbdFKp4DbS_Q&sig2=X4Jdg2IhqZWvHG56R1480Q

 

[kingofnobbys]

I wanted to post this link to an article by Allen Repashy on understanding how too much calcium, with or without D3 can be harmful to our reptiles. Scroll down to section 3+4, but the entire article is very interesting. This info should be a sticky IMO, since there are so many inquiries about supplemental dusting.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjP2vLQyIjPAhVCkh4KHcpaDYwQFgghMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reptilesmagazine.com%2FSupplemental-Nutrition-for-Your-Reptiles%2F&usg=AFQjCNFJClT6zTbvO4Uk-tNbdFKp4DbS_Q&sig2=X4Jdg2IhqZWvHG56R1480Q

Thankyou .... very interesting.

 

[Taterbug]

T5 bulbs (including reptisun) are several times stronger than the older T8 and can match the strength of the sun in mid morning when dragons would be basking. <<<< this might be the case where most beardie keepers are located ie latitudes north of 40degrees, but definitely not the case in the natural range of central and rankins bearded dragons between 25 and 15 degrees south latitude especially in the late spring thro to early autumn (when beardies are most active , breeding and hatchlings are showing up) , UVI in excess of 13 are normal on a sunny and even on overcast days (the clouds don't impede the UVA and UVB much).

Is that to suggest also keeping basking temperatures at Australian mid-day levels? I'd guess that would be surface temps of 150-160F+ based on what monitor keepers offer. Sunlight is a package deal, high UV + high heat both max out at mid day and many reptiles are documented as having reduced activity when it is so harsh out. They may bask and go in and out of the light/shade but considering most captive owners expect their lizards to spend the majority of time basking, don't offer a big enclosure with much gradient and UV bulbs don't dim... that would be subjecting them to unnaturally long high exposure.

Yes, Australian UV undex gets crazy high, but there is a lot about wild environment that aren't appropriate to recreate in captivity.