canibolism and color changes in dubia colony. HELP!

[getgab92]

Hello!
Okay so i have been breeding my dubia for a while now and I make my own chow for them as well. My breeding tank is doing just fine but my feeder tank has been doing funny things lately. Some of the dubia have been dying off and then if I dont find them and take them out in time, it gets eaten by the others in the tank. Also I have noticed that some members are not the usual dark brown/black color anymore. They have turned to a light brown/yellow color. What does this mean? There is no mold in the tank and I feed them vegetables and things regularly but I'm not sure if it is safe to feed them to my beardie. Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Soulwind]

Sounds to me like you're not giving them enough protein in the feeder bin.

 

[getgab92]

I feel like i put plenty in the mix I give them. I have turtle food, fish food, bearded dragon pellets, and high protein dog food. What else should I be putting in it?

 

[Soulwind]

You're giving that to the feeders as well as the breeders?

Well, it's not a lack of protein then.

Cannibalism of the dead ones isn't that unusual, but having
enough die off in your feeder bin to notice it probably is.

Is it just adult males? That could be normal overcrowding fighting.

If a lot of nymphs are involved too, then I don't really know.

I've had a few oddly colored ones show up in my bins now and then,
but never in a large enough quantity to make me think it's anything
other than a minor genetic mutation/recessive gene of some sort.

I typically freeze and discard any odd colored ones I find, just to be on
the safe side, but again it happens pretty rarely.

Maybe try to get a few photos of them and post it?

 

[Taterbug]

I get light colored ones too, I think they are just more recently molted. I try and pick out fresh molts when they are white because pepper loves them. If he doesn't eat them they seem to end up being generally paler for a days.

I get eaten/headless corpses too sometimes. Not sure why but it's not an impact on population. In my case could be overpopulation.

That doesn't sound like a very optimal diet for your feeder bin, though.

 

[getgab92]

Well I noticed it because I don't have like thousands in my feeder bin. I have only been breeding about 5 months. I only have nymphs in my feeder bin. The extra adult males go in another cage so I can try to sell them and my breeder tank has a 4-1 ratio of females to males. I just recounted them today and I have about 14 males and 56 females and 3 extra females.

My chow also has oatmeal in it. I have been trying to find a good mix of things that are good for them and that they like. I have read that it is not good to use chicken feed. I also give them fruits and veggies often. Things like carrots, strawberries, oranges, lettuce, sweet potatoes, ect.

And also the ones that are colored funny are not only lighter after they shed but they usually stay that color and their carapace is usually softer as well. They are sometimes the ones I find dead. I use glass aquariums for all my bins and I keep them in a closed armoire in my room. So I check them often for food and water gels and when I see Dead ones I look through the egg crates to see if there are more.

If anyone has any more advice on this or ways I can make a good chow for them it would really help a lot. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one encountering this.

 

[Taterbug]

I'll dig up some chow recipes tonight if I get some time and no one beats me to it . I can't remember it off the top of my head. I feed veggies and chicken mash to my colony and veggies only to my feeders. I am iffy of the chicken feed even though I use it and will likely replace it with something more thought out when I get the chance. I try not feed it except when I am out of other things. They love most of the food you give your dragon, mine decimate squash and pineapple.

Diets a bigger deal with the feeder bin, since you are trying to make them the best meal for your lizard. I'd suggest cutting back on things like fish food (high phosphorus) and high protein pet food(can lead to uric acid build up) especially. Protein is used for growth and proliferation, since you don't need that for your feeders they don't need as much in their diet.

 

[getgab92]

Oh I would really appreciate that thank you!

And yeah I was reading about the uric acid build up online. My dragon won't eat anything but collards and occasionally mustards and dandelion greens. I have no idea why. I have tried so many things but he never ever eats them. That's why I feed the dubia other things. Do have any suggestions on what to do with the chow after I take out the dog food and fish food? I don't have the money to keep buying food all the time so it would just make it a lot easier to make it myself. I just want everyone to be healthy lol.

 

[Soulwind]

Well for my breeding bin chow, I use:

5 cups Purina Kitten Chow
2 cups Cereal (either GrapeNuts or Kashi)
1 cup Oatmeal
1/4 cup Raw Sugar

Grind it all up in an old coffee grinder and serve. My colony destroys it and has been thriving for more than a year.

They also get oranges and apple cores on a regular basis. I'll also give them a slice or two of white bread that's gone stale, but not moldy yet, now and then; also other veggies and stuff that have wilted get put in for consumption rather than throwing it away.

---

I don't keep a full "feeder bin", but I do keep a critter cage loaded with about 2 weeks of feeders at a time. Those guys get nothing but fresh veggies and stuff so they stay nice and gut-loaded.

 

[getgab92]

Oh okay. I don't know if I want to start having to buy cat food cause I don't have cats but maybe if I get more suggestions I can combine them a little lol. If not that is still very helpful Thank you.

So you don't feed your feeder bin? Like with chow? Only fruits and veggies

 

[Taterbug]

So I can't track down the recipe I had in mind. :?:

Essentially though an alternative dry/protein mix would be based on alfalfa rather than dog/cat food. Alfalfa pellets are pretty affordable from feed stores iirc.

That said, dog/cat food probably isn't an immediate problem (at least for your breeder bin) so I wouldn't chuck it out per say. But it's worth considering the quality of food you feed your lizards prey. You want to feed something working in your favor, rather than against you, especially with the bugs destined to be dinner.

If you are conscientious about how you harvest to the feeder bin it may not be so much of an issue. Then you can just keep the questionable stuff out, and feed the feeders fresh produce. Aside from collards (my roaches hate them) they do pretty well living off the same greens and veggies I feed the lizard. They also get any produce scraps from cooking (apple cores, squash guts, pepper guts etc) and things that are on sale at the grocery. I cruise the "scratch and dent" bin at the grocery too. Given options, they eat what they need, too and can decide if they need more or less of things like protein, etc.

I do not feed chow, just fresh fruits and veggies, and some chicken mash when I'm out of veggies. I do not keep separate bins either, I have about two weeks worth (at most) in a critter cage, eating the same veggies as the lizard.

This blog is a pretty (overwhelmingly) detailed collection of information. Some of her chows are pretty complicated but she also explains the benefit or drawback of certain food items.
http://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

 

[getgab92]

Thank you very much. I will definitely have to review some of those sites. I guess this is just one of those mysterious things lol. No one knows what is actually good or bad. Just have to take the word or someone who wrote about it on the Internet. I wish I knew what Lance uses lol. I know his chow is speed to be great.

 

[Taterbug]

Thank you very much. I will definitely have to review some of those sites. I guess this is just one of those mysterious things lol. No one knows what is actually good or bad. Just have to take the word or someone who wrote about it on the Internet. I wish I knew what Lance uses lol. I know his chow is speed to be great.

That seems to be the "truth" to so much, lol. I subscribe to the philosophy that I keep pet reptiles, not roaches. I'm convinced the roaches could be quite happy on a diet that doesn't make them necessarily a good food source. There is a lot of room for personal judgment calls.

 

[getgab92]

I just don't know what to do lol. I will have to figure something out. I am still going to be open to suggestions.

 

[jarich]

Sounds like you may have a humidity issue. What is the humidity inside your tubs?