Calci sand letter

[beardie parents]

I came in contact with this letter some months ago on another beardie email list about calci sand and how it's 'safe' and yet may cause problems. I have it and hope to be able to copy it to this post so you can see it. It actually came from the man to created this stuff and he still swears that it's not normal for any reptile to eat this stuff, but if they do eat a lot of it it can cause problems.

Let's hope this letter is posted so you can see it.



----- Forwarded Message ----


Here it is again.


Jo

----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Calci-Sand impactions

Hi Jo,

Following our discussions at last week's Global pet trade show, the reason that T-Rex first introduced calcium sand to the reptile hobby was for two reasons.

First, unlike silica, it is actually digestible, though at the grade size we use it for a substrate, this digestion process is slow and can therefore be overwhelmed if the reptile deliberately ingests a lot of it. We use the exact same calcium in our insect dusting powder MicroStick and this fine grade is digested quickly. It has to do with smaller particle sizes presenting a much greater surface area for the stomach acids to work on and so dissolve it quickly.

The particle size that we use for our calcium sand is actually very carefully thought about. It needs to be fine enough to pass through the gut in small quantities and/or be digested, but large enough to support a reptile without it sinking too far into it. Think about yourself say trying to walk on a two foot layer of beans - you'd find it tough trying to walk across it because you would sink down into it, then consider how easy it would be to walk across a two foot layer of potatoes? It is all about particle size. Larger particle size makes a better substrate.

Secondly, unlike silica sand, calcium sand forms a paste with stomach contents rather than a concrete, as does silica sand. This impacted paste in the gut can be readily treated by a qualified vet with liquid parafin or an intestinal peristalsis modulator, such as metroclopramide, which is given orally. Impacted silica sand concrete does not respond to this treatment and so invariably has to be surgically removed.

The obvious reason why a Bearded Dragon or Leopard Gecko would eat its sand substrate to excess is because it is deficient in calcium and/or vitamin D3. The less obvious, but increasingly common reason is that protozoan parasites, such as coccidia and cryptosporidium, can cause extensive discomfort to a Dragon or Gecko by destroying the lining of its intestines. This discomfort seems to stimulate the Dragon or Gecko to ingest sand and other substrates to excess. It is rather like the Dragon or Gecko is trying to treat itself. Maybe a raw and sore intestine full of sand feels more comfortable to it than an empty one. Unfortunately, as we know, the Dragon or Gecko can do itself even more harm if it ingests a lot of any type of sand.

This is an increasing problem, and one hardly ever seen when we first introduced Calci-Sand over a decade ago, because coccidia is estimated to now be endemic in practically the whole captive bred Bearded Dragon population and cryptosporidium is endemic in the captive bred Leopard Gecko population. It does not usually become symptomatic until triggered by stress. This stress can be caused by many things but insufficient temperature is a particularly common one. Coccidia is usually easy to treat once it becomes symptomatic. Drugs such as BayCox 5% solution from Bayer (0.5cc/kg as a single dose), Trimethoprim, sulfonamides or sulfa drugs are used. One brand that is frequently used in the USA is called Albon.

I hope the above helps you to understand that it is not normal for a Dragon or Gecko to voluntarily eat its sand substrate to the extent that it fills its stomach with it. It is usually a symptom of some underlying disease or nutritional problem. So it is not the fault of the sand itself.

Best regards,

Jon Coote, Director of Research, T-Rex Products Inc.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

[Denduran87]

So they pin the blame on something else like a true politician?
Here is the calcium carbonate msds
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927119

 

[beardie parents]

Wow, thanks for that information. I was able to save that, also so I could share it elsewhere.

I mainly wanted to share this letter with these people so we could all see that the man who developed it says it can cause problems but it's not the fault of the sand. You are right, just like most politicians.

 

[coastergirl946]

Tell that to me and my boyfriend.
We lost a 3 1/2 year old beardie to calcium sand impaction. It messed up his intestines to the point where he could no longer poop without assistance.. there was still sand in his feces three months after we removed the sand from his vivarium..
then he prolapsed, then on the way to the vet he choked to death on the food he vomited up that he could no longer digest.
It still hurts to look at the top of the dresser and not see him there on his basking stick or scratching at the glass.

I plead with all of you to never, ever use calcium sand.
I know you love your beardies, and I do not want to see any of you go through what my boyfriend and I went through.

 

[Denduran87]

Tell that to me and my boyfriend.
We lost a 3 1/2 year old beardie to calcium sand impaction. It messed up his intestines to the point where he could no longer poop without assistance.. there was still sand in his feces three months after we removed the sand from his vivarium..
then he prolapsed, then on the way to the vet he choked to death on the food he vomited up that he could no longer digest.
It still hurts to look at the top of the dresser and not see him there on his basking stick or scratching at the glass.

I plead with all of you to never, ever use calcium sand.
I know you love your beardies, and I do not want to see any of you go through what my boyfriend and I went through.

WoW! I am so sorry for your loss that would be a hard thing to go through.

 

[beardie parents]

Coastergirl, I understand your pain as we lost 4 beardies in a 2 year period, not from calcisand but from other things. It always hurts to loose them. They are such wonderful creatures made by God for our enjoyment.

That's why I posted this letter that someone else received. I wanted to get the word out that they admit there can be problems with this sand if your beardie ingests it. He just denies that it's the fault of the calci sand.

 

[FBradshaw]

If you break up a bunch of glass bottles and eat the glass shards is it the bottles fault that your throat stomach and intestines got cut up? No, it's your own fault for eating it. It's not the sands fault that some animals decide to eat it in excess. Some animals, just like some people, are too stupid for their own good. If anything it's the animals owners fault for not realizing their pet was eating the sand in excess and changing to a safer substrate. I personally house 5 dragons on sand and have not had one problem with impaction. I also breed beardies and all 83 that hatched for me last year were put directly on sand from the incubator and not one of them had any problems either. I used to use calci-sand but due to the outrageous cost, $7.49 for a 10 lb. bag, and the other health issues that could arise from the calci-sand dust, I switched to play sand and most likely when my new enclosure gets finished I'll be switching to tile in it just to make it easier to clean and maintain, but there will still at the very least be an area where my beardies have sand to dig and play in. One thing people don't seem to realize, and most on this site will argue to death with you about, is sand is a part of beardies natural habitat. It's not all they live on in the wild, but some wild dragons go there entire lives living on nothing but sand and they thrive in it.

 

[Denduran87]

You can take that risk but I wont!

 

[beardie parents]

Maybe you are right about some beardies living on sand, I wouldn't know as I've never been to Australia, but that sand isn't this calcisand that was made by man and stuff put into it that (even tho the maker disagrees) entices some to eat the sand. The purpose of this thread is that the calci sand shouldn't be used for beardies and I'd never use it for any reptile, if I had some other than beardies.

 

[coastergirl946]

You can take that risk but I wont!

+1

 

[Jamiedog]

If you break up a bunch of glass bottles and eat the glass shards is it the bottles fault that your throat stomach and intestines got cut up? No, it's your own fault for eating it. It's not the sands fault that some animals decide to eat it in excess. Some animals, just like some people, are too stupid for their own good.

But an animal, like a child, cannot be expected to necessarily make their own good or bad decisions. I know I shouldn't eat shards from a glass bottle, but would a 10-month-old baby? They don't have any idea that it could harm their intestines; they are not aware that they have intestines. Neither are animals. They do what instinct tells them to do, and it's not really "smart" or "stupid," particularly in a case where they've been taken very far away from the situation where their natural instincts have evolved to keep them alive. Reptiles have developed the tongue that helps them smell and seek out food. They taste everything because, in the wild, that's how they can find lunch. You can't turn that off, sadly, by moving them into a glass tank and providing them two square meals/day. :wink: It's the responsibility of the owner, as it is with the parent of that 10-month-old, to make sure that risk is kept to a minimum. If you know your beardie has a propensity to taste everything they go near, every single time, might be best to avoid sand.

I'm not getting into the yes-versus-no debate on the sand, or calci-sand - I don't use it, because I don't want to risk it, but it's a personal choice, and I know both sides are pretty vociferous about their opinions - but I don't think it's entirely fair to blame "stupidity" as a cause for some beardies having issues with sand. They aren't eating it because they could or could not understand that that is what is causing them to be unable to get it out at the other end - they can't make the connection between "hey, my legs aren't working right" and "hmmm... that sand I ate..." Pretty primitive little brains, in reptiles. :wink: They don't do personal responsibility.

Again: Not arguing for or against sand. Just sticking up for the brain of the bearded dragon. :lol:

/2 cents

 

[randommonks]

My roommate in college lost a leopard gecko due to what I suspect was brought on by impaction. She only had it for a few months, before it looked like it was just starting to poop out its own intestines. Not sure what happened to it, but most probably the calcisand didn't help. Before we could get it to the vet, it had died. That in itself was enough to convince me that calcisand was not a good substrate. Even if the leopard gecko is calcium deficient, at least on other substrates it won't have the chance of accidentally slowly killing itself.

I've read that the natural habitat of bearded dragon was desert, brush, or woodlands. In the desert, the sand that they're on is compacted and hard, with very little of it loose, so that reduces the risk of impaction in the wild. Obviously the brush and woodlands will have plants and shrubs that hold the soil down. So there's little loose sand where they naturally live, and it's not like the Sahara where the dessert is just loose and swirly.