Butterworms are a good choice!

[diamc]

Definitely.

They are a healthy soft bodied worm.

-Brandon

Totally agree.

 

[CobraCookies]

I had a question about these, I was interested in trying these for my juvie (he is 9.5" long) but was wondering how much of these he would eat? I'm not sure how big they are and it seems I can get a tub of 100 for $20. He eats about 20 1" crickets a day and if he can eat as many butterworms as he does crickets then that could get expensive really fast. I'd probably end up just feeding the worms every other day for lunch.

 

[wilddragons16]

Is that at Elliot's butterworms?

 

[CobraCookies]

Yes, that's where I have found them the cheapest. If there is somewhere cheaper than by all means let me know lol

 

[Claudiusx]

They are an expensive feeder. If you can afford to feed them that's great, if you can only afford to feed them occasionally along side another staple insect, that is fine too. Variety is the key, you never want to give just 1 bug for a dragons whole diet anyways.

They really aren't that big.

-Brandon

 

[wilddragons16]

For me, my dragon won't eat crickets, and I am not allowed to get roaches, so worms are my only option. Any other ideas on worms? Ps Elliot's has the best prices, I do my homework before I buy.

 

[Sauzo]

Silkworms, hornworms, phoenix worms. Can use superworms too if your dragon is a minimum of 16 inches since anything shorter can result in impaction of your dragon.

 

[wilddragons16]

Silk worms... I can't find a place that has good prices and low shipping. Plus, they have to have silkworms chow. Hornworms, they come in such small amounts that it just doesn't make sense to get them. And my little guy is just now 7 inches. :mrgreen: Tiny boy

 

[diamc]

Not sure where you are from but http://www.lindasgonebuggie.com has some $5.00 cups that might interest you, just scroll down to near the bottom of the page. Her feeders are great & she has awesome customer service too. I have been using her for quite a while. The hornworms & silkworms come in a cup with chow already, enough to keep them alive for at least 2 weeks.

A cup of hornworms is $10.00 though but you get 15+ worms in that cup.

 

[Taterbug]

I was thinking of getting some of these in my next bug order, and did a little more digging. I was looking for phosphorus content and found an research paper in which the data disagrees with many of the nutritional claims except. In addition, the paper compares the detailed nutritional content for major nutrients, amino-acids and vitamins and made the conclusion that butterworms "are probably inappropriate as the bulk of an insectivore’s daily diet."

The same author did a similar study on the other common feeders (Crickets, Superworms, Mealworms, Silkworms and Waxworms, in addition to the one that has the Butterworms and Phoenix Worms) so its an interesting direct comparison. The common feeders like mealworms and crickets in the study line up with other published nutrition information. I wish I could get a copy of that one... "Complete nutrient composition of commercially raised invertebrates used as food for insectivores. Zoo Biol 21:286–293"

It's starting to seem suspicious to me and I'm a little worried the sellers of these bugs are being misleading, especially considering the marketing they are using looks almost exactly the same. One even claims "*The Calcium content is more than twice that of any other known feeder insect!" Any thoughts?

Complete Nutrient Content of Four Species of Feeder Insects by Mark D. Finke
Moisture : 60.2%
Ca (mg/100g) : 12.5 (Lowest of the 11 feeder insects)
P (mg/100g) : 225
Ca : 0.06:1 (Typical with other feeders, except Phoenix worms)
Fat : 29.4 g/kg (Highest of the 11 feeders, including waxworms)
% Calories from Fat : 89% (Highest of the 11 feeders, including waxworms)
Protein (g/100g) : 15.5 (This one is close as well)

From Elliot's Butterworm/Mullberry Farms
Moisture 58.54
Ash 1.04
Protein 16.20
Fat 5.21
Calories/Fat 87.73
Calcium (ml/100 grs) 42.90*
* Exceptionally High Calcium

Edit: Added protein

 

[wilddragons16]

Let me see if I understand what you are getting at. Are you saying that butterworms may not be good based on nutritional analysis, and you are concerned that other feeders like calci-worms, for example, may not be as good as they are sold as being? Thank you for the info, we need people who are looking for the cutting edge info for our lizards!

 

[wilddragons16]

P.S I wonder if elliot's is using a different mesuring system, like fat per worm, ect, instead of mg/100 g

 

[Taterbug]

I may be a little on the conspiracy theory side of everything, but I don't usually take companies for their word if they are trying to sell me something. I'm not saying the bug sellers are misleading intentionally, it may come from the exporters since it seems like there isn't much information about the bugs either. I'm not sure the methods or even the units to the data the exporters are supplying as nutrition information to the distributors. It makes it hard to really compare between sites/sources.

When compared side by side using the same techniques and data the butterworms don't seem very exceptional. They actually seem rather junk foody. So I'm a little confused about the claims.

 

[Claudiusx]

It's hard to believe one source over another. One side of the table, multiple different sources have basically agreed with Elliotts analysis. While one disagrees with it.

This is the internet, you can basically find an article to agree with anything in the world you want.

My personal experience with them leads me to believe the other sources, not this one source that claims them to be junk.

We also don't know about the sampling of the worms tested. Were Elliots tested using good healthy feeder insect quality worms that had been fed a good artificial diet? Was your source tested with wild caught worms that likely wouldn't have had as good a diet as a captive kept worm?

All valid questions that need to be answered before definitive word can be spoken.

-Brandon

 

[Taterbug]

I've not seen multiple other detailed analysis, just the summary info repeated almost word for word around the web. Multiple sources being independent analysis, not just repeating the findings in multiple places. I'd love to compare but I can't find any.

If you read the paper (I linked to it) it explains exactly how the worms are prepared, tested, the lab used, methods, assumptions and the source (mulberry farms). I don't have this information (yet?) for the retailer version of the analysis. Also, it doesn't claim them to be junk, rather better suited for certain situations such as animals with high caloric requirements, rather than a "bulk of the daily diet" aka staple. Junk food was my personal interpretation, in that they are more on the waxworm side of the spectrum considering fat content and nutrient levels.

All butter worms are imported, and to my understanding wild caught. (Elliot's are.) As far as I can find they do not eat in captivity as their natural food source in unavailable. Have you had luck feeding or gut loading the worms? Does an artificial diet exist?