Bump on Dragon's Leg

Status
Not open for further replies.

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
He's 109g as of yesterday.

There is swelling around the bump, but that's been there effectively since the bump existed, and while the swelling does make the ankle look larger than the other, its grown proportionately and not obviously got worse.

Last night I couldn't get him to eat much of anything, not even his worms, and only managed to give him a decent helping of butternut squash baby food with probiotic dust mixed in after a bit of a fight.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Ha Ha, I understand completely why you're asking me about my qualifications, as you shouldn't ever just take advice you get on the internet without double checking it...that being said, don't you ever not ask your vet or your human doctors any questions you have, or bring up alternatives to what they are telling you, simply because you "don't want to offend them", as you absolutely must advocate for yourself, your children, and your pets. Doctors are human, and unfortunately, especially in the United States, veterinarians do not require any special education or training in order to call themselves an "Exotic Vet", all that means in this country is that the vet is WILLING to see animals other than dogs and cats. That's it. The only designation in the US that indicates that a veterinarian has any specialized education or training in a specific species of animal is if they are a "Board Certified" vet, like a "Certified Herp Vet" or a "Certified Avian Vet". Other than that, an Exotics vet can graduate from veterinary school and call themselves an "Exotics Vet" if they want to see ALL types of animals, reptiles, amphibians, birds, rodents, etc. Then when they see an animal that they know nothing about (Veterinary school isn't long enough to educate students in the specifics of every "exotic" species of pets), the first thing an "exotics vet" typically does is leave the exam room and jump on the internet, lol...

Anyway, as far as I go, yes, I have a Bachelors Degree in Health Science, a Master's Degree in Animal Health Science, and I finished an additional classroom year of a separate Master's Degree to become a Physician's Assistant, followed by a year-long internship at Dubois Regional Medical Center...then I started into Veterinary Science and worked at the Animal Diagnostic Laboratory at Penn State University, doing mostly testing and diagnosis for all of the local farmers in central Pennsylvania. There is a huge lack of livestock veterinarians in central PA, even though from State College east, through Harrisburg, Hershey, York, Reading, Lancaster, and up into the Scranton-Wilkes Barre and down to Allentown is nothing but both small and large family farms and huge industrial farms. So many farmers in this area use Penn State as a huge resource for the medical care of their livestock, Penn State University is one of the top Agricultural Universities in the world. So farmers would take their own biological samples from their herds and flocks and send it in to the Animal Diagnostic Lab at Penn State University main campus in State College, PA, where I still live, and I would basically go over all of the issues with the farmers over the phone and in person at their farms, and would run any testing that we thought was necessary based on the signs and symptoms of the animals. Then we would do whatever else might have been necessary to determine a positive and definite diagnosis, then design a treatment plan with the farmers, etc. I also worked on many research projects that Penn State was running, and basically it's a great arrangement for the farmers and for the University, as the farmers get free medical diagnostics and the university gets free research herds and flocks. The Avian Influenza lab at the Animal Diagnostics Lab was a place I was working in when the first big outbreak of AI happened in the late 90's-early 2000's. Anyway, I got caught between wanting to be in human medicine or animal medicine, so I got the education for both...and I've also had my own pet bearded dragons for almost 15 years now, my first I got at a month old and he lived just shy of 13 years old, and I now have an 11 month old female and a 5 month old male, as well as a year and 3 month old male that I adopted from a family who had gotten him as a baby but had gotten horrible husbandry advice from Petco, never got him a UVB light, fed him only mealworms, and used wood chips as his substrate...he came to me with severe MBD, stunted growth, and an impaction that had been going on for 3 months at that point and that partially paralyzed his back legs. I got him at 8 months old, and now he's doing 500% better, thank god..

After looking at the new photos I totally agree with what Tracie has already written, and I wouldn't call that a "bump" at all, it's not an encapsulated swelling but rather a dispersed swelling throughout his entire foot and into his toes, the first thing I noticed is the swelling of one of his toes. It looks to me that the swelling is originating from the ankle joint and radiating outward throughout his entire foot, into his toes and his heel, and most likely originated from the ankle joint itself. It could very well be the start of Gout, though it's odd that after a month he hasn't shown any swelling in any other extremities, nor is it causing him any pain at all, which is not indicative of Gout. That's not to say that his Uric Acid levels are just moderately high and that swelling won't suddenly pop up in his other extremities, or that he won't start experiencing a lot of pain and start limping and having trouble walking...either way, whether it's Gout or not, it's not a localized bacterial infection, as if it was he would be one sick and hurting boy after a month of it, and it would either be an encapsulated swelling (abscess), or he would have dispersed discoloration/redness after a month. Plus, for a localized infection/abscess there would have to be some type of external causation, like a wound or a bite, or an internal causation like a fracture or some type of soft-tissue injury, both of which would cause pain and bruising...

At 109 grams they may be able to run blood work to check for signs of both Gout and a bacterial infection. But honestly I really don't see this being a bacterial infection at all, it's simply generalized swelling of his entire foot centered around the ankle joint, that has lasted for a month now and that is not painful and displays no bruising, no redness, and no external sign of broken skin or injury. It could very well be a mass in the bone or in the soft tissue, such as a tumor or a cyst, as usually they start out being painless and show no signs of discoloration. If they are able to do blood work and it shows no sign of infection or Gout, then that's the avenue they need to go down. Either way, keeping him on a broad-spectrum antibiotic that is making him sick in the hopes that it is a bacterial infection is counterproductive, as not only is it making him sick, but it's putting off finding a positive diagnosis of what the problem really is. And as far as the parasites go, it's unfortunately EXTREMELY COMMON for vets to run a fecal, see coccidia, pseudomonas, pinworms, or any other number of bacteria, protozoa, or parasites and then they needlessly prescribe harsh meds that are completely unnecessary. It's upsetting that your dragon was displaying no signs or symptoms of having a gastrointestinal issue, yet they ran a routine fecal test just because he hadn't ever had one done, and then they put him on meds because they saw "parasites" that are normally present in their stools. That's why I asked you if you requested he have a fecal because he was having problems like consistent runny stools, blood in his stool, lack of appetite, lethargy, etc. that indicate a high-count parasitic infection. Your dragon was fine as far as his GI tract went, yet they put him on medication because some normally present microbes showed up on a routine fecal. It's unnecessary, and will only cause problems with appetite, his bowel habits, and can actually cause a secondary fungal infection...this is becoming a serious issue for bearded dragons, many are dying because the medications they are giving on a "Just In Case" basis start a vicious cycle that spins out of control...
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
Thank you very much, EllenD.

Yes, those appear to be the parasites found in his stool. We made the decision to stop with the anti-parasitic medication on Friday, as he'd basically stopped eating entirely as was fighting us for force-feeding. I called the vet's office on Saturday, and while the vet wasn't there, I explained the situation to the technician to pass on to the vet and she agreed with the assessment that at the very least two meds at once could be too much for him to handle and that keeping him eating while he's developing is of top importance.

We also made the decision, based on yours and Tracie's recommendation as well as looking for symptoms of infection to see if they correlate, to stop the antibiotics early yesterday. He's got Black Cherry concentrate (specifically for gout, but I couldn't get "extract") added to his calcium/vitamin/probiotic mix and we were elated that about 30 hours after his last antibiotic and three days after the anti-parasitic he decided to eat on his own again. Not just take food, either, he ran after and hunted his crickets; he hasn't done that in over a week. It was a little less than he usually eats in a sitting, but it was enough to make my wife and I both very happy.

The swelling is still exactly the same as it's been for the duration of a month, and the bump specifically is really just a feature now, giving no indication of growing or causing any pain. I think I'm going to wait to feed him back up to normal, go in again next week, and considering his size now ask for another X-Ray and blood work.

Your thoughts?
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Yay! Glad to hear he ate on his own...Too many meds is not a good thing, and treating a low to moderate coccidia count is totally unnecessary...I agree completely, let him get to feeling less stressed and eating back to a daily event, and he definitely needs at least blood work. The blood work will be a way more definitive way to get a positive diagnosis, as it will definitely diagnose gout or totally rule it out by looking at the Uric acid levels, and you'll also be able to see how badly it is effecting his kidneys if he has gout. It will also show whether or not he has any type of infection, so then you'll know if antibiotics are necessary at all, though still won't necessarily know what type of infection it is or where it is, but will definitely rule it out. An x-ray will only occasionally show uric acid crystals in the joints, usually it doesn't, and if you do an x-ray first and it shows no uric acid crystals in his joints, then the vet is likely to go "See, no gout", when in fact x-rays rarely diagnose gout unless it's extremely advanced. Plus an x-ray won't tell you anything about infection, his kidney function, liver function, etc. So I highly recommend getting a blood panel done first and then move forward based on what his blood tells you. My guess is that his uric acid levels will be elevated, his kidneys will most likely show some stress/reversible damage from the uric acid, and his white cells will be normal...
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
Further update:

Almost a week off the antibiotics and over a week off the antiparasite meds, and Anachronos has been eating well enough that he's actually looking fat now. As of last night he's 139g. He's back up the habit of only wanting to hunt the biggest crickets or the largest worms; anything smaller than the absolute largest either only gets eaten if it's clumsy enough to wander into striking distance or I put it in front of him, but he'll eat scores of those. I've reduced feeding him squash baby food (with calcium, black cherry, probiotic, and vitamins to once every several days; the powders are still combined to make his cricket dust).

He scrambled up to his chair to see the snow through the window for the first time in his life. Watching him still shows that he's got no issues using the affected foot, and just for good measure I poked it a bit in case it irritated him (it didn't). I can't quite tell if the swelling has increased slightly, or it just looks that way because he's once again grown a little bit, but it has now been just over a month since the bump & swelling appeared.

Still no bruising, no affect on climbing, running, or other basic movements, no obvious pain (or injury), but it's not gone away. Our next appointment with the vet is on Tuesday, for bloodwork.

I'm going to see about actually taking some video to showcase the ankle, as well as his movement and behaviour, in case someone can see anything we're missing. Will continue to update.
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
Okay, so, we got the results from the blood test back, and everything's fine.

His white blood cell count is great, the chemicals are balanced (including uric acid), the red blood cells are also normal with the slightest hint of possible chronic inflammation, but nothing at all is coming up even as a possible red flag to infection, gout, or any other emergent cause.

Aside from being VERY pissed off after getting his blood drawn (that was a very unhappy, puffy beard we got to see when he got handed back), he's completely fine. Today my wife had the day off so he was apparently very busy exploring, watching the birds outside, eating, and running around that when I finally got home he looked exhausted, but it's just adding to the mystery that is the bump and swelling since he's not showing any slowing down, soreness, or pain in the leg.

Our next step is to wait two weeks (if only because we're busy the next week), and get another x-ray just to see how the joint is developing.

I'm glad we're moving on what we know it isn't, but we aren't a whole lot closer to knowing what it is. But it seems like it might just be a permanent, benign deformity I guess.
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
That's pretty encouraging news. Ruling out a lot of serious issues is helpful in itself. Hopefully it stays as it is and doesn't become a problem.
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
Just a further update, due to a very hectic and busy schedule - and a lack of any indicators of problems - we haven't taken Anachronos to the vet for a follow-up X-Ray yet. Instead, he's gaining weight at a steady pace, giving all the signs of good health, and being so spoiled that he's since refused to eat any of his veggies because he knows we have worms somewhere for him.

The swelling around his ankle never increased, and now that he's bigger he pretty much "grew into" the swelling to the point we have to REALLY look at him to tell that there was some; his other leg is now naturally as thick as the first. Furthermore, his bump on the ankle (the original point of concern) has become deflated skin and just sort of hangs there, a tiny reminder of what used to look like a big, fresh bug bite.

What IS a new development is the last knuckle swelling on the one foot that Tracey and EllenD noted in the picture has maintained its size and is now mirrored on the other back toe, and both toes were twisted in the same direction (outward and back, the way he uses them to climb). They aren't continuing to swell, but it's still fairly recent. They don't cause him any pain from his reactions to handling and investigation.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

That is very odd! Sorry I didn't check back in. Do you have a copy of the blood test
results I could see?
Sometimes when they say that a value is normal, it's actually on the high end & needs
to be looked at more. Do you have another recent picture you could post?
I'm glad he is growing & doing well! I'm sure he did not like his blood taken though, it
is painful.

Tracie
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
I am SO sorry for not getting back here, it's been a bit crazy and every time I remember it is at an inconvenient time.

I do not have a copy of the blood tests, unfortunately, though we're going back for a basic check-up and the now-overdue x-ray this Tuesday so I'll see about asking for it.

As for the feet, these are the images I took intending to post them a couple weeks ago:

94933-5279424461.jpg
94933-2038281854.jpg
94933-5433220104.jpg

They're not the greatest indicators of what's going on but you can still see the enlarged knuckle on each big toe, and that they're always pointing back (as if he's permanently getting caught on something). Also note that the bump and swelling on the right leg is effectively gone.

Despite being older photos, they look exactly the same now as in the images. As before, tweaking/playing with/investigating the toes elicits no reaction, and certainly not pain.

He *has* become more lethargic in the past couple weeks. He still eats, and on occasion goes back to his fast-paced hunting, but otherwise lumbers about during feeding, only eating anything dazed enough to wander too close. We're having difficulty getting him to eat more vegetables because of his laid-back eating habits (he'll just wait us out for bugs). The only food that excites him is any kind of worm (hornworms are his favourites, but also butterworms and as of just last week mealworms also pique his interest).

I'm a little concerned because he used to be keen on exploring the house when he comes out, and now he just goes to find a quiet corner after only a brief look around and settles in:

94933-7291252841.jpg

His sleeping schedule is a solid 12 hours dark/12 hours light. He also doesn't ask to come out quite as much anymore and just seems... lazy.

It's also contrasted by our acquiring another beardie (a female, one month younger, and in extraordinary good health from a local knowledgeable breeder) who is precisely the opposite, I suppose, who is super-fast, voracious, extremely curious and bright-eyed. Except for just tonight they've been getting along well; he's done his dominance display, she waves at him, and they go about their business (tonight she tried to bob back, the little troublemaker - nothing came of it).

Edit: we've had her for about a week and a half. She has precisely the same setup as he has, and while in their terrariums they don't see each other.

So that's the update so far.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Latest resources

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Day 3 of brumation. It's a struggle. I really miss my little guy. 😔
Mirage entered brumation yesterday, I'm gonna miss hanging out with my little guy.
Getting ready for another day. Feeling sleepy. 😴
I just walked into my room and instead of looking at me, Swordtail's eyes darted directly to the ice cream drumstick I'm holding
Finally replaced Swordtail's substrate

Forum statistics

Threads
156,110
Messages
1,257,894
Members
76,086
Latest member
Critter Guy
Top Bottom