Brumation Frustration

[SeventyGTX]

I'm not sure if this belongs in the health section or not, because my BD seems very healthy. Anyway, my BD is an almost 5 y.o. female that brumates more than she is awake........and not my a slim margin. She sleeps probably 10 months out of the year.
She seems fine otherwise, but wow, why have a pet that always sleeps? This has been going on the last couple of years. She does it so much, I almost forget I have her. I have bought new lamps, different foods, etc., but nothing gets her out of comatose mode. Yesterday,after weeks of inactivity, I went over and talked to her and she opened her eyes, so I dripped some water on her nose and she drank some, then got on her basking spot for about an hour or so..........then back to bed she went. :?
I am in a small town that does not have reptile food, so I have to order online. I did not have anything to offer her except greens which she refused. I will have some Phoenix and Supers here in a couple of days, but she will probably will still in a coma.
My question is, how common is this? I read Denise Bushnells page on brumating, :study: but it never really mentions anything about brumating for the majority of the year. My little girl is the coolest when she's awake, but this is very rare. Sorry for the minor rant, but it is just frustrating to have her and very seldom have the opportunity to enjoy her.

 

[diamc]

Hi, I can see why you would be concerned and frustrated. Sleeping about 10 mos out of the yr seems like too much. Have you taken her for a vet check to make sure everything is ok? Did you have a fecal done?

Would you mind answering these questions so we can help you rule things out? Thanks.

How old is your dragon?
How long have you had your dragon?
How long is your dragon?
What is the sex of your dragon?
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in?
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank?
Do you use UVB lights?
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb?
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)?
How old is your UVB bulb?
How close can your dragon get to the UVB?
Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage?
What are the basking temps?
What is the cool side temp?
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun?
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps?
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad?
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific.
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)?
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc?
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them?
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)?
Do you bath your dragon? How often?
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath?
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon?
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done?

 

[SeventyGTX]

Wow, that's a LOT of questions although I answered some in my post. Quite are few of these questions were tough to answer because she is sleeping more than she is awake.


How old is your dragon? - Almost 5 years
How long have you had your dragon? - Since she was a 9 weeks old
How long is your dragon? - 16"
What is the sex of your dragon? -Female
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? -36"x18"x18"
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? - currenty paper towels
Do you use UVB lights? -yes
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? - Mercury Vapor
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)?- T-Rex UV Active 160watt, but I have also used 100 watt
How old is your UVB bulb?- 6 months
How close can your dragon get to the UVB? 12"
Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage? The T-rex is her only bulb
What are the basking temps? 105-110
What is the cool side temp? 80
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? -temp gun
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps? On her body
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad? - No
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific. -Supers, Phoenix, and Butterworms. She quit eating veggies a couple of years ago.
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)? -Morning and night
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc? -No
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them? -No
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? - She isn't awake enough to be regular :?
Do you bath your dragon? How often? - yes, maybe 3 or 4 times a year......when she is awake
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath?- sometimes in summer
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? - No
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done?- She checked out fine about three years ago, but we have no reptile vet in my small town.

 

[diamc]

Hi, thanks for answering the questions. I know there were a lot of them, but that way, we are sure not to leave any important issues out.

I do see a few things that could use changing that could perhaps make a difference. The T-Rex 160 watt should actually be a minimum of 18" from your beardie when she is basking. The 100 watt would be the minimum of 12". I have a 100 watt and it does throw out a lot of strong rays and also gets very hot so I'm sure the 160 watt is quite a bit stronger, so would suggest you move it at least 18" away. So, if she is retreating from the MVB, she is probably trying to escape the strong rays. Adults tend to like the temps a little cooler, so lowering the temp to 100 to 105 could also make her feel more comfortable.

Here's a site that most of us refer to for greens/veggies. The daily staple foods are printed in green ink. If you haven't tried some of these, might be a good idea to see if you can get her to eat some. http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html An adult should actually be eating 80% greens/veggies and only 20% live feeders. If they are given too much protein and not enough greens, they could develop liver and/or kidney problems.

You don't have to gutload butterworms or phoenix worms, but supers should be given potatoes, carrots, greens, etc for nutrition so that they will be more healthy when fed to your beardie.

An adult beardie should be getting calcium (without D3 since you have a MVB) but should be phosphorus-free 2 to 3 days a wk, 1 feeding a day and vitamins 1 to 2 days a wk, 1 feeding a day. The supplements shouldn't be given on the same day. It's important that beardies get these supplements to prevent metabolic bone disease and to give them the vitamins they need to be healthy. Beardies can get a vitamin deficiency, which can be serious. You could pick up some liquid calcium to help give her a boost and one to 2 drops might even make a difference since she may very well be hypocalcemic right now.

If she is actually brumating, it's important to make sure that she doesn't have any food left in her stomach, so getting her to poop is a necessity so bathing 2 times a day would be a good idea as well as massaging gently on her right side from her armpit to vent area. If you feel any hardened areas, massage gently in a circular motion trying to move it closer to her vent so she can pass it. A 15 to 20 min bath with their vents right down in the water hydrates them thoroughly. So, I suggest you bathe her more often and usually do that with mine 3 to 4 times a wk and they love their baths. Make sure to put a washcloth or small towel down in the bottom to give her something to hang on to. Dehydration can cause lethargy and that me be some of what you're seeing. You can also offer very warm babyfood applesauce thinned with a little bit of water or Pedialyte, put drops on her nose for her to lick off. Most beardies love applesauce.

When you get a poop sample, it would be a good idea to have it checked for parasites and even a regular vet could do that for you.

I think once you make these changes, you will see a change in her but if you don't within a week, a vet check would be a good idea. Please keep us updated on her, ok?

 

[SeventyGTX]

Please keep us updated on her, ok?

Hi Diamc, well she woke up this morning and I gave her some water and she went to her basking rock. Luckily, the Phoenix and Supers showed up last night around 7pm, so I offered her a bunch of medium Phoenix worms and she ate about 15 of them. She was very lethargic from being in brumation for so long. She is now basking happily on her rock. I double checked the lamp, and it is a 100 watt T-Rex about 11" from her body. My temp gun shows the rock is only 93 degrees and the top of her head is 98 at the highest point. Hopefully she stays up longer than a day or two this time. :|

I offered her some mixed veggies after the worms which she usually likes.......especially corn. But after checking out the Beautifuldragon link you posted, it says corn should be eaten rarely. She also loves green beens.
Hopefully she will stay up a while a chomp down some veggies and go poop later on so can take it to the vet.........even though they specialize in horses, dogs and cats.

 

[dragons1222]

my guess to why she is so lethargic is due to no suppliments

and too many feeders butterworms do not need to be dusted b/c they are more for a treat pheonix worms dont either b/c they have a high calcium content

but superworms are VERY high in phosphorus and that would cancel out the calcium from the pw

she should only be getting feeders 2-3x a week(30-50 feeders) and veggies everyday

dust with pure calcium 2-3x a week and a multivitamin 1x a week no d3 b/c you have an mvb

and yes start bathing more often it is definatly not normal for her to be sleeping that much

 

[SeventyGTX]

I gave her a bath yesterday and she pooped then and it looked normal. Since she pooped in the water I don't think it would be a sample I could take the the vet. I offered her veggies, but she refused them.
I will see if I can get some calcium somewhere today. This is a small town with very few places to buy anything for reptiles, but I will see what I can find. There is a Walmart here that may have it.

 

[frog]

hi. for calcium supplements etc, i would recommend going online. I live in Reno and only know of one place that has the good stuff, and that place has bad prices. so online is your best bet. Although i dont know much about what Fallon has, i would expect if i can hardly find it in Reno, i wouldn't get your hopes up too high either ( no offense, im not trying to suggest Fallon is bad or anything, im just pointing out i havent had to much luck and im not too far away from you so..)

 

[dragons1222]

yes ordering online is probably your best bet

and a sample from the bathtub is fine

they just looks under the microscope for parasites getting it out of the tub should not make a difference

 

[diamc]

I gave her a bath yesterday and she pooped then and it looked normal. Since she pooped in the water I don't think it would be a sample I could take the the vet. I offered her veggies, but she refused them.
I will see if I can get some calcium somewhere today. This is a small town with very few places to buy anything for reptiles, but I will see what I can find. There is a Walmart here that may have it.

You could actually take a poo sample out of the bath water. I had to do that once & the vet did ask me if it was always so runny to and I informed him that the sample had come from her bath water. He was able to check it fine though.
Here's a site you could get the calcium and vitamins from since you live in the US and this is the brand that we suggest: http://www.petmountain.com/product/supplements/105551/rep-cal-ultrafine-calcium-with-vitamin-d3.html