Bruce is now coughing...

[Beansdragons]

At this point in Bruce's care, i'm so frustrated. Can they get Covid???? ugh. A lot of the information I have from the vet and internet seem to point in different directions. I have a feeling something is wrong, but I can't suss out what it is.

He is now coughing or something every few seconds or minutes. This was after the every other day bath I've been giving him. I put his water bowl BACK in because vet said he needed it. He NEVER drinks out of it. Humidity is 24%. Light is a 10UVB HO no screen and 110 degrees F basking spot with a 80 F cool side.I feed him dubia and mealworms, we are ordering new dubia, hornworms and nutrigrubs today. Salads daily.

Here are links to the video of him coughing. I've been talking to a beardie vet in AU (literally, @beardie_vet on FB) and he thinks the parasites (see Beardie ER on Bruce, coccidia and trophozoite) can be managed with husbandry and his info seems really good.

As we speak, Bruce just rocket shat all over his bed. Great. Anyway. I'll drop a fresh poo pick in here. Can't get much fresher unless you were actually here.

Does anyone have any ideas? Suggestions? information?

https://youtu.be/RqFX06ks0LM
https://youtu.be/jobK7TDx-Ok

 

[KarrieRee]

That is the first I have heard a dragon cough -- poor guy -- the poop looks good and healthy to me -- the cough not so much -- Tracie or AHBD need to watch the video and go from there see what they think -- I have heard nothing of dragons catching covid but they have said cats and dogs can get it so who knows --- I am going to flag your post so they see it
Karrie

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, he looks very fit and even that poo is perfection. As for the coughing, I am 99/9% sure that reptiles can't get Covid, at least not from a mammal [ human ] Since he just started getting baths, he might have aspirated water. It's also possible that he just has food caught in his throat. And did this start after you disinfected his tank ? They can be very sensitive to toxic fumes. Those are just some thoughts. BTW, you should not have thrown out the worms, there's no proof that had anything to do with his parasites. And if he has a low count of parasites they usually don't need treatment.

 

[MrSpectrum]

FWIW, coronaviruses are almost invariably species-specific, and it's extremely rare (given their numbers) for them to jump species barriers.
coronaviruses that have jumped species barrier
Obviously there are a couple of high-profile exceptions (COVID-19 from bats) but it's still (in the overall scheme of things) extremely rare.
See also: https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-strains#1-2

I think it more likely Bruce has an URI or parasite(s).

 

[Beansdragons]

So I’ve noticed that he only coughs when he’s not basking for a long period of time. Also he does have parasites. He has coccidia and a trophozoite of some form. Medication should be filled today and I will start giving them to him. Apparently it does put them off their food which is upsetting because he just started eating again.

 

[KarrieRee]

I would get paper towels in for substrate so you can get the parasites out of tank when he starts pooping them out - especially if you have the carpet - and I would get some F10 if you can or Wipeout cleaner so you can sanitize everytime you clean his tank---
Karrie

 

[AHBD]

That's good that the coughing slowed down. It probably was just stuck food or aspirated water. You should avoid the soaks, beardies don't really need them unless they are dirty, [ and they can aspirate water , lots of beardies end up with coughing spells after a soak ] but once a week or every other week may be enjoyable to them.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is Bruce doing today?
So, his cough is improving then, that is good news! I think also that he probably aspirated
some water or food. A lot of dragons aspirate water during bath time & it usually takes a few
days for them to completely clear out their lungs but he should be able to.
Just keep him a little warmer overnight, to help boost his immune system.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[Beansdragons]

He's still coughing though not as much. He's also hanging out in his cool side and not really in his bask. He's kinda dark, but that makes sense, right?

Also the vet is prescribing a med, ronidazole, he says makes them go off food. this was why I took him to the vet to begin with. I was going to get a second opinion, but I can't afford it or go now that I"m on quarantine.

 

[Beansdragons]

Ok....so the more I read, the more I'm worried about giving Bruce these medicines.

I'm getting such conflicting advice that I'm feeling like I'm going to make the wrong decision either way.

I spoke with the vet we used and he is saying that no parasites are good, taht they do MUCH better with 0 parasites. He said it's old information that they usually have them so they should keep them.

The vet from AU, the scientist/beardie vet - is telling me what you guys have said EXCEPT I do need to take him to a vet because of the cough. And that I need ot get him warmer faster and keep him a bit warmer and not stressed adn it (coccidia) should level out.

The vet we used said the cough is because of the parasites and we HAVE to get rid of them. Is he wrong?

He prescribed Albon Suspension and Ronidazole. I gave him both of the meds today adn he's super pissed at me right now. And he went to bed early - I hope hes not in pain.

The WHOLE issue was that he wasn't eating - and now he is - but I'm worried this will put him off his food again and/or the cough will get worse.

*sigh* I made an appointment with a new vet on Saturday. Should I not give him more meds until the second opinion? That seems like a lot of medication.

 

[MrSpectrum]

DX and advice from veterinarians--like those from human doctors/physicians--are professional opinions, based on their superior (to laymen's) education, experience, and testing. They've dedicated their lives to the health & well-being of our pets, and have spent years in education & clinical experience--not just their own, but that of their entire profession. Even if/when they disagree, they all have our pet's best interest at heart.

A lot of working with/through a veterinarian has to do with trust (or faith, if you will). Again, as with a human physician, if you don't trust the veterinarian, you have the wrong veterinarian.

So, IMO, first you need to decide which one you trust the most, and go with them and what they say & prescribe. You're free--even encouraged--to get second (or more) opinions, but in the end, you're going to have to pick one. Trying to follow more than one (at a time) will only drive you nuts, and could be more deleterious than therapeutic to your pet. Even though the beardie vet in Australia (if he's the one I'm thinking of) is highly specialized and experienced, he has not examined Bruce, so may not have as clear a picture as a herp vet who has examined him.

All that said (and here's where things will get dicey, and I expect pushback from some whose noses will get out of joint), I would still take the word/advice of a qualified herp vet I trusted over any lay opinion on a website (and that includes myself). I don't care if the laypeople claim 20+ years experience raising dragons, or work in a reptile facility, or any of that stuff. Science trumps anecdotal evidence.

The choice is still yours--but IMO you will have to make one. I truly wish you and Bruce the best.

HTH

 

[Beansdragons]

It does and I am. I have an appointment tomorrow with a different veterinarian. I just have too many people telling me that the medicine will make him sick. Had he not been coughing I would take the vets opinion and wait and see if it got worse. Because he is now coughing I think something definitely needs to be done. I did forget to mention that I brought up an upper respiratory infection to the vet I have seen so far, and he didn’t think that I had any issues at all because his daughters takes a bath every day and has pretty high humidity in his tank. I don’t know Bruce’s history, he may not have had a water bowl in his tank. He certainly hates baths. So I’m a little concerned by his dismissiveness Of what I’ve said more than anything. That makes me cast doubt on his other information. I do not think he doesn’t have Bruce’s best interest at heart, I just think that sometimes doctors don’t listen to their patients, be the human or animal. Unfortunately I will have to make a decision by Saturday. He still coughing and I don’t want him to get worse. But I do think that waiting one more day might be beneficial if he will go off his food again and continue to lose weight.

So basically yeah TLDR I’m taking him to a new vet tomorrow and we’ll see what she says. I’ll post an update here

 

[Beansdragons]

**UPDATE**

Ok. SOOOOO glad I followed my gut here. New vet examined him and used old labs to look at blood work. She did xrays and send them to zoo med to be read by a radiologist. They watched his coughing videos and both were stumped. The radiologist said it looks like he's got pneumonia - a very mild case of it.

New vet, Dr. GilMurray, said he is not coughing from parasites, at least not from what she can see. She says he's a little under weight - not surprising since he was so off his food for a couple weeks. Says he should be about 600g. I forget what she told me he was, it isn't too far off.

She double checked with another vet, the beardievet, and - of course - her own expertise and said neither of the drugs we were given are really recommended for these guys.

she gave him a dose of metronidazole, and I took him home.

He has pooped 4 times since saturday. Big ole poops too. He's been glass surfing, so I let him out and he's already found a spot he likes by the corner to climb up on and survey things. We have done this for 2 days.

I'm not bathing him daily. He will get a soak maybe 2X a week and daily misting. Bugs 2X a week and fresh salads every day.

His coughing HAS died down - but I've been waking him and putting him in his bask spot every day.

 

[AHBD]

Sorry that I missed the latest of this thread. Yes, I agree about not taking those meds. [ Albon + ronidazole] with no serious parasite diagnosis . Even if he had parasites ponazuril or toltrazuril would be much less harsh and works more quickly. So there is no real diagnosis, just a guess of possible very light pneumonia ? And just to up the temps. a tiny bit and no meds. prescribed ? BTW, I would avoid misting him as well, it serves no purpose except once in a while to help with shedding.

As for the comment about a vet knowing way more than long time owners this is not always the case at all. There are quite a few deaths here, some even lately, due to bad advice and treatment from vets. The treatments are at times in direct conflict with what was recommended here and result in quick deaths. So for many owners, coming to a forum with people who have years of experience with beardies is the first step to help their dragons [ sometimes just as simple as getting new lights, happens all the time ! ] So coming to this site for anyone with a new beardie can be the best decision.. When very serious problems are going, advice is given to seek out an experienced vet.

 

[Beansdragons]

So there is no real diagnosis, just a guess of possible very light pneumonia ? And just to up the temps. a tiny bit and no meds. prescribed ? BTW, I would avoid misting him as well, it serves no purpose except once in a while to help with shedding.

Well, the xrays were sent to a veterinary radiologist, and s/he said there was a light pneumonia pattern in one of his lungs - so to me - with a vet weighing in on the cough I will take that as a diagnosis of pneumonia. I don't know anything about his past, this could be due to bad husbandry before, could have started due to stressing from being moved from his home to the pet store then to me, then to a new enclosure. Who knows? But I'll go with we have a diagnosis.

As for misting - he's dehydrated. He won't drink from a bowl and he's not consistently eating his salads. For now I give him a good "shower" with mist 2x a day from his shoulders down. I keep his salad wet.

So coming to this site for anyone with a new beardie can be the best decision.. When very serious problems are going, advice is given to seek out an experienced vet.

[/quote]

I love this site! I feel liek I"m posting like crazy all over everywhere lol. Even so, him going off food, visibly losing weight, and being dark all the time seemed pretty serious. Then the first vet rang alarm bells, and i'm glad i listened to my gut and you all and got him to a new vet whom I trust.

: