breeding forum discussion....

[aoscar]

I have noticed that anytime anyone here, myself included, asks for breeding help (that's why this forum is here) we get attacked and flamed by breeders saying , "you shouldn't breed" or "your sooooo not ready." Isn't breeding one of the most rewarding aspects of owning these animals? I know it was with my fish. The one who responded to me got into breeding because of their own ignorance of proper husbandry.(I read his sight) I think many breeders simply do not want new people breeding because of fear of competition in an already flooded market, and that people may post their babies here. In this
thread,http://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=112708 the poster said "is this normal? if it is i don't think i will bother." Then gets insulted and flamed for asking if the violence level normal as he is completely ready to wash his hands of breeding beardies.

Lay off the people that are asking questions and be a little more helpful. Seems to me that they want to be responsible about breeding, that's why they are here asking questions.This is a friendly and informative site, with the exception of this forum, that I recommend to a lot of people.

I'd also like to know how exactly how it is we have so many good articles and not one on breeding.

 

[spyder79]

The biggest reason people get "flamed" as you call it is because they come to this forum after having already bred their dragons and then they realize they have no idea what to do or expect next. Such as the person you are speaking of on the violence. If proper research had been done that person would have know what it looked like and how violent it can be. Then when told that said person said that they were very experienced and knew what they were doing because they breed snakes which is a completely different scenario. It is nothing to do with competition it is people choosing to breed these creatures and then realizing they werent prepared for it. You can complain about it all you want but it is a harsh fact. People choose to breed than ask for help and then get offended when they are told they should have researched it themselves before breeding. And if there was a breeding article than anyone and everyone that read it would think that made them ready to breed which it undoubtedly would not as you need a lot of hands on experience with these animals as well as knowledge of their requirements as hatchlings through to adults. You also need to know how and where to sell your babies as well as a full genetic background of your breeders which most people do not know. there is so much involved in it and no one cares to look it up they just stick a female and a male together and say whoopie babies now what.

And it does piss of most of us cause the majority of us that respond have researched anything and everything we can and have a lot of experience with these animals.

 

[aoscar]

so because I don't know if my female is snow, mark. leustic, or a yellow/orange hypo I should not breed her? That's absurd.

 

[spyder79]

if your dragons genetic background is unknown you have no way of knowing that your female dragon is unrelated with the male dragon you plan to breed with. that is the point of knowing the genetic background of your animal. It is obvious that you want to argue over this issue for some reason and i will not argue with you over it. I have no reason to try and talk you into believing my point of view. If you want to argue go look for someone else. You posted this in a forum basically asking for opinions and responses. I gave mine and i am now finished with your thread. thanks. have a wonderful day.

 

[peera]

I agree with Brian, it may seem harsh, but the fact is that not many people are prepared for the reality of breeding these guys. I've breed fish, and that was relatively cheap and easy & didn't hurt them (maybe it's not so with all fish, but the ones I had were simple enough). Beardies are a completely different ballgame.

As for "everyone getting flamed". I have posted several topics in this section, all of which showed I had done my homework and just needed some clarification, and not once have I been flamed, in fact I've received quite a bit of invaluable help and support.

 

[aoscar]

well I know that my male is orange sunburst/chris allen red x cawley orange/red flame. My best educated guess would be snow for my girl.(hours and hours of looking at pix and descriptions) No my intent is not arguing, but there is a way to speak to people and a way not too. I am however fluent in both. My thread I was looking for clarification and got beat up for asking questions, none of which were answered, but I was complimented on my dragons.

As far as the fish reference goes, that was an illustration of the rewarding experience of breeding exotic pets. However many fish will not breed unless they are given the right conditions, IE temp, ph, ample territory, etc. while some fish breed easily you shouldn't expect to have multiplying babies surviving in a 150 gallon african cichlid colony, or oscars (rather violent courtship) reproducing without being given the proper conditions. Not that these are the most difficult breeders, just not guppies by any means.

 

[spyder79]

Seems the only question in your thread that did not get answered really cant be answered. There is no way to say what the babies are going to look like from a pairing. Just as there is no way to know what a baby will look like at two months old from looking at it fresh from the egg. You can get the most normal babies from the deepest red breeders or the most beautiful colorful animals from two that looked normal. It is all about what genetics end up being the stronger part of the line. So there was no answer to the question you were asking which Tom told you and i take it you didnt like that answer. And if you feel the way i talk is attacking that is your problem and issue not mine.

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

Hello Again,
Im just curious on how I flamed you? I know im a direct person and can come accross roughly but I just reread the post I responded to and thought I answered your questions for the most part, and even told you I thought you would get some interesting babys from the pair. Im just wondering what Im missing here?

 

[citrusdragon]

I'll just say from my experience this forum can be very helpful, yet intimidating. Sometimes is pays to search the forums and find answers, or google, to show some initiative on your part and save the really unique questions for the forums. I only make this statement since I was lurking on this board for well over a year before I ever asked a question, or responded to one. I wanted to be informed on my own terms, so I wasn't offended or deterred by the responses I received.

As for the Breeding Forum, if you intend to breed you will. There is nothing anyone can or will do to stop you; however, we do see the need to discourage proceeding with breeding projects where there has been no due diligence on your part. There is a tremendous cost to breeding that cannot be appreciated until your first 3-5 clutches hatch. If people really kept score(accounting for all costs) it is an impossible business to make feasible considering the hourly wage you get for your labors.

The majority of us would like more people to be responsible breeders, and sometimes it can be a little exasperating to see the callous decisions of others displayed in posts day after day. Look at all the questions that ARE answered, repeatedly,and with respect. I have rarely seen true "flaming" on these boards, like on the BOI. Most breeders, like Tom, are about informing the community and building friendships. Let's face most of us breeders make sales of our best dragons to "future" breeders.

There's no need to offend, or take offense on behalf of others. There is a lot of information on breeding on the internet, and it's not all on this site, or in a book.

Like I say to possible breeders I sell to : "Google is your friend"

Jeff

 

[aoscar]

Well Tom, I really wasn't directing this at you, you relaxed after I expained more details.
Then it was brought up and I had to explain myself again in a thread that had nothing to do with breeding.
I guess if I had to pick areas I'd have liked more feedback on would be how long after brumation to "breed" and would a 55 gallon tank with dividers work for grouping babies, as opposed to bin racks. But that's not really the point of this thread

I was checking the other breeding threads and I saw a lot of , no don't breed, no don't breed.
Now I admit that while reading many other breeding posts, there are some people that have asked some "iffy" questions. But some people that asked questions, came across to me as a question from one that has done some research, and they get treated like they aren't capable. Seems the worst is always assumed. The standard breeding question response should not be "if you have to ask that question, you should not be breeding"

I will say that help and overall positivity is striking in the questions regarding egg and baby care.

Maybe a sticky thread of product links, a video maybe of typical breeding behavior. I have read a lot of people saying if they saw that first they'd not have breed.I still also think a general article on the subject would be nice to read but I guess I'll find one somewhere else. I also know a couple breeders, and have had the opportunity to check out one of their operations. I am the kind of person who likes to check my facts, especially when trying something new.

 

[zebraflavencs]

Hi, I'm not a breeder, nor most likely ever will be... I'll leave that to Tom, and Jeff, and Brian. However, I wanted to comment on your feeling attacked. Yes, some of us will indeed come down rather harshly on some who have done NO research and want to breed. I commend you on your attempts to get as much information as possible. I took a looksee on your other threads, and comments, and well, if you feel ready, and the female/males are conditioned ( weight, age etc) then I see no reason why you can't breed, and see what babies you hatch from those clutches.
Also, there are several Excellent guides for conditioning your dragons for mating.
Here is one posted here some time back:
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Here are some others:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18081&p=129002&hilit=breeding+care+sheet#p129002

Also your question about how long to wait after brumation is a good one... From what I have read, most dragons are raring to go once totally out of brumation, and eating normally. At least the males are the most obvious.
Denise Bushnell wrote a very excellent guide on brumation by the way.
http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/brumation/

I guess I just wanted to say, please take the comments posted in a non defensive way. We are here to help, but we also don't want to see someone who hasn't done the amount of research you have, just tossing their hats into the ring, as it were. You can understand why, yes ?
Well, I said what I felt strongly to say, and even with all you have researched, there is always more out there to digest, and ingest. Even Tom ( my buddy!) has said over and over again, there is always more to learn, and once you stop learning... well, you might as well toss the dirt over him ...
I certainly hope you understand where I am coming from, as it is soooo difficult to gauge the "mood" that are written, rather than spoken face to face.

Good luck... oh... pictures are a must of your clutches and hatchlings
Photohound Janie

 

[lacy_black]

I can see where Brian may SEEM harsh and overbearing but I always agree with him too. So many unexperienced people say "I put them together now what?" and it gets so frustrating because it's really irresponsible of them. Snakes, geckos none of the other animals are like dragons except that they're cold blooded. I did do the research, that's why I didn't breed. I didn't want to add yet more unknown genetics to the already overwelmed gene pool so's to speak.
People have a responsibility to keep the lines as pure as possible and with very few dragons making it out of australia (on the black market) everytime someone just tosses a few dragons together there's more mud in the pool.
Then even after the genetics are known a few generations back you still have the overwelming costs and time that you need to put out. I'd have to say the most annoyingly blind ones i've seen are the ones who say "I wanna make lots of money breeding dragons" You don't make lots of money unless you're either A: giving the animals the absolutely cheapest of everything and comprimising their heath or B: so huge that you have hundreds if not thousands of dragons breeding constantly.
Add to that thought that at the current time the economy stinks so most people aren't willing or able to buy dragons, and if they do most times can't afford to properly take care of them.

So if some seem harsh and "flaming" then maybe there's a darn good reason for it and you should grow a thicker skin or just not read those replies if it hurts your tender feelings.

 

[spyder79]

I can see where Brian may SEEM harsh and overbearing but I always agree with him too. So many unexperienced people say "I put them together now what?" and it gets so frustrating because it's really irresponsible of them. Snakes, geckos none of the other animals are like dragons except that they're cold blooded. I did do the research, that's why I didn't breed. I didn't want to add yet more unknown genetics to the already overwelmed gene pool so's to speak.
People have a responsibility to keep the lines as pure as possible and with very few dragons making it out of australia (on the black market) everytime someone just tosses a few dragons together there's more mud in the pool.
Then even after the genetics are known a few generations back you still have the overwelming costs and time that you need to put out. I'd have to say the most annoyingly blind ones i've seen are the ones who say "I wanna make lots of money breeding dragons" You don't make lots of money unless you're either A: giving the animals the absolutely cheapest of everything and comprimising their heath or B: so huge that you have hundreds if not thousands of dragons breeding constantly.
Add to that thought that at the current time the economy stinks so most people aren't willing or able to buy dragons, and if they do most times can't afford to properly take care of them.

So if some seem harsh and "flaming" then maybe there's a darn good reason for it and you should grow a thicker skin or just not read those replies if it hurts your tender feelings.

Thank you for the support.

Most of the time my advice is take well but I inevitably run into 1 or 2 people a month or so on this forum that think im mean or rude. Its not me being rude people its me be blatantly honest.

 

[Twobeardieguy]

Brian, I also support you!!! I just don't have a nice way to say things!! :roll: The way I say stuff people take it the wrong way as well!!

 

[babydragondaddy]

Everytime I sit on top of my wife, she immediatly gets a head ache... am I doing it wrong?
just tryin to trow some water on the fire here, but I have to agree, ones who love these beautiful little creatures should definatly be "rough" when someone has done little to no research before breeding. "my point... have you watched MTV or Cartoon lately!?)