Biting at her own fingers

[jacqui778]

Whew, Tracie just kicked your butt....

:lol:

TRath, how is your beardie doing? Has she stopped biting at herself?

The only thing I can suggest is to see if maybe she wants to eat more. :dontknow:

Hope she's feeling better!

-- Jacqui

 

[vickson420]

Well said Tracie I dont think anyone could have said it better!

 

[carpetguy]

Hello,

How do you figure that the compacts & coils give out sufficient UVB light emissions? You are kidding, right? The only decent one is the Arcadia D3 which still had a 43% decline rate in 3 months, which if you look at the stats is pretty poor. Compacts & coils put a terrible glare on their eyes & produce uneven lighting of the UVB emissions as well. These dangerous compacts & coils had incorrect phosphor combinations on them which was a complete disaster with their products, while others were just plain poor & not good for anything other than being used to just simply brighten up the tank, that is it.

Look at these charts:
This first chart is only including the Arcadia D3, just read what Dr. Baines has to say about compacts.
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/compactlamps.htm

Note the ESU super coil light:
http://www.russiantortoise.org/uvb.htm

Last of all, most of the compact & coils from Reptisun 5 & 10 were horribly dangerous:
Please read this report:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm


Compare with the flourescent tube bulb results:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttuberesults.htm

I am not even including the results from the mercury vapor bulbs because they are superior over these bulbs that it isn't even worth mentioning.
So do your homework regarding these lights & search this forum as you will find tons of dragon owners who have used compact or coil lights that have had terrible problems from eye problems to metabolic bone disease. Just because you have not had any trouble with yours, doesn't mean that you will not in the future. You have just been lucky thus far, as the compacts & coils do not provide adequate UVB emissions when compared to the flourescent tubes or the mercury vapor bulbs. They are cheap, & ineffective & I do not recommend them. If you kept a gravid female under those lights it would be ineffective for giving her the well needed UVB exposure for her to keep up her 25 Hydroxy levels while being stressed with egg laying because she wouldn't absorb her calcium very well. There have been numerous cases with those problems on this forum, too.
You are missing the point of the problem here. If you are using a compact or coil light, bright white light must be provided in order to allow the pupil to constrict properly especially if you are keeping the compact or coil light at 5-6 inches. That can damage their cornea. The idea is to allow very little light into the eye area which protects the cornea & pupil. If not enough bright light is being used, that is when it becomes hazardous. There is plenty of research with the compacts & coils that you have not found. The eye problems have nothing to do with inbreeding, & everything to do with lighting. Placing the lights that close to any reptile is hazardous & it is simply not the reptiles fault, they are only trying to get what little UVB that light is emitting anyway. Most of these problems are the fault of the new owner not knowing about the light, or not having the husbandry correct in the first place. Though it is not the fault of new keepers either when they are told inaccurate information either by a petstore worker or breeder who has no idea, either. We are all here to learn & to help each other out.
Going out in the desert is not hard on their eyes at all. It is their natural habitat & are designed for that type of lighting & heat. The light spectrum is MUCH brighter than ANY compact or coil light. Thus, that will easily allow the pupil to constrict which allows LESS light into the eye avoiding cornea damage.
What you do not realize is that they may not immediately show metabolic bone disease with inadequate UVB lighting. As reptiles have unique metabolisms, some may utilize calcium more quickly than others leaving some with problems while others tend to deal with it better. We are seeing tremendous problems with metabolic bone disease which is a direct problem to UVB exposure. They simply cannot absorb calcium & other vitamins properly without UVB exposure.
I for one, do not want my reptiles to just exist under a light that barely puts out uW10cm2 when the sun puts out average uW250cm2 or more. The 25 hydroxy levels can only be maintained at adequate levels for so long, until they will begin to experience any problems. Yes, not all show problems, but some may get by for years, only to all of the sudden show tremendous problems "all of the sudden" or "out of nowhere". Nothing is usually "out of nowhere" when it comes to UVB exposure. If they have not had it for years, then, try exposing them to a decent light, & I will guarantee you that within 24 hours, you will have a completely different behavior from that dragon. It makes a night & day difference.
As far as self inflicted biting, all cases we have seen have been directly related to poor UVB exposure as well as hypocalcemia problems & were resolved when the husbandry was corrected. I believe that they are all intelligent, they are just poorly understood as most do not spend the time to get to know their true language.
No use in arguing my points on UVB. Most everyone on this board is a huge advocate of UVB & has done their homework & research when it comes to the compacts & coils. A large majority of people on here have had alot of trouble with them, as well, & do not recommend them.

So, please do not undermine our knowledge & our opportunity to educate new members on topics that we have all studied & worked so hard on to research when you clearly have just a basic understanding of these lights.

Tracie

Thank you for the data link's I will get around reading them all and I am by no means trying to step on any toe's but what you suggest can be painful if someone just went and spent a bundle on their new passion and find out that they got bad info from a pet shop.As for me i try never to deal with pet shop's if i can get away with it for obvious reason's.99% of them only worry about their bottom line and the animal's pay the price.Been around herp's my whole life (2ond generation) a lot of field exp. I lived in many part's of the country and in a few Desert's both high altitude and the unforgiving low one plus i was a soldier once so i know a little something about the desert and it's many unique inhabitant's .If everything you said is true and i have no reason to believe otherwise with such a thorough informative answer than it is likely the diet i have them on and the fact that i've known since childhood that you really could not get any basking animal to grow and thrive properly without natural sunlight so I include that at least 2 hrs. part of the year.These light's did not exist in my childhood when I kept most my lizard species . you are right ,i do not know enough about all the different kind's of light's available but I have seen them work magic with sick dragon's.My original one STUDLY (male) was a rescue mission.Bad tremor's, jaw problem's very lethargic ,little to no appetite.He is 100% now and a dad like me. That was a little over 2 yr's ago.You can see the very same behavior (arm waving head bob and tail wag ) in western fence lizzard's(bluebellies) somewhat in the hornytoads and chuckawalla's that are common basking lizzard's in U.S. desert's and they all have one thing in common, you will not find when the sun is at it's highest in the warm season. you have to over turn rock's,dig or get poked by some wicked long-lasting painful cactus spine's to find them all the while trying not to surprise a rattlesnake along the way which are very common off the beaten path and have every to live just like people. so i can understand the eye problem's but strongly feel if they were (THE BULB'S) were as dangerous as some believe the problem's would be far more widespread considering the current popularity of the bearded dragon. A lot of professionals still use them, probably because they are more economical. I called 2 of them locally and got a mixed response.one said it depended on which type of set up which they were installed but would'nt take the time to specify the other swore by them and pointed out that he has a few retired breeder's that are in the 10 year range.As for me i am all way's looking to improve the quality of life for any animal in my care because whatever happen's to them is never their fault .

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

You are right, you wont find them basking at high noon, or very rarely! Though it is not the because of the brightness, it is simply the "strength" of the UVB being overwhelming. I totally agree with you on that. They mostly bask during early morning to later morning, then, later in the middle of the afternoon when the temperatures begin to drop.
This is exactly why I try to research everything so I as well as the other members & mods can help educate people on the lights. I agree, it is unfortunate when people get told the wrong information & just spent alot of money. We are working on trying to get these companies to quit putting out these cruddy lights, but they seem to put them out faster than the reports can be written.. So many times the only way we know if the light is bad is if the animal begins to have trouble with them.
That is why I do not recommend any UVB lights that have not been tested thoroughly with the UVB meter club & only recommend ones after seeing the test data on them for safety. It is extremely frustrating at times, but, since there is no standardization of lighting for reptiles we don't really have any other choice.
As you do, allowing them to have natural sunlight at least 2+ hours daily, during the summertime greatly helps. If everyone could do that it would most definitely help them out as nothing beats the sunlight.
However, the eye problems have been very widespread. If the owner brightens the tank, then it definitely helps & they can continue to use the compact or coil light, but I prefer them just getting another UVB light that is better quality. There have been no long term studies done on the effects of low wavelength UVB on reptiles. What we do know is that low wavelength UVB exposure does lead to health problems in humans which leads me to conclude that it would most likely be hazardous to their health over time with prolonged exposure. That is not something that I want to expose them to.
You cannot go cheap on quality with the UVB lighting. You usually get what you pay for. You buy a cheaply made light & that is what you get, a cheap light.
The best things that we can do here is to educate on the best products, & how best to use them & how to properly setup your enclosure that is safe, etc.
Now you can compare what you have not had in the past, to what has been designed & invented now with the lighting to help you offer them better lighting in the future.

Tracie