Biting at her own fingers

[TRath]

Please help!

We woke up this morning and found that our 1 year old female dragon had chewed off 3 toes on her front leg. Got her to the vet, who said she was otherwise healthy and prescribed some antibiotics and painkillers.
The problem is that she is going after her fingers and ripping at them randomly, so we're having to constantly watch to stop her from taking off her whole foot. I've tried to fashion a protective "boot" out of gauze and medical tape, but she keeps clawing it off.
Checking with the breeder, they said that the smell of the blood on her foot is triggering a predatory instinct and she might just bit it off until there isn't enough left to reach. We've confirmed that the lighting and temps are correct, and we're not on sand, so we're not worried about mites.

Has anyone encountered this sort of thing before? What is safe to do to try to clean off the wounds (hydrogen peroxide etc)? Is there something that can safely mask the smell so she stops going after it? Are there boots or shoes made for dragons that I can go get that would stay on?

We're not going to be able to moniter her every minute of every day, and we don't want to come home to her with no foot or having bled out.

Please, any advice will help!

 

[dobiegil2000]

Others on the forum have said hydrogen peroxide is a no no. Instead betadine solution (in a tub of water ) that looks like weak tea is recommended. You can also use antibiotic ointment. I would PM dache13 (tracie) as she seems to have the most experience with medical issues. I hope you girl gets well soon.

Robin

 

[TRath]

What about putting vaseline on her fingers? It might not help them heal, but it should block the smell of the blood and it's neutral, so I don't think there would be any adverse reaction.
Once she's out for the noght and slowed down some, I'm going to make another boot and hope it holds until morning at least.

 

[Jasper's Mom]

I wouldn't recommend vaseline. An antibiotic ointment such as polysporin is a better choice. And continue to wrap her foot so that she can't get at it. Poor little baby!

 

[TRath]

We had a friend of a friend call that is an exotic vet and have already nixed the vaseline idea. We'll pick up some polysporyn in the morning, and in the meantime she recommended we make a "puppy cone" to keep her away from it at least until morning.
To put things mildly, she is not pleased.
If I knew how to post pick, I'd share the dirty look I'm getting with all of you.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Can you let me know what type & brand of UVB light you are using, is it a flourescent tube bulb or a compact or coil light? How old is the UVB light?
Are you using calcium supplementation?
Usually they only bite at their toes & fingers for a couple of reasons which would be she either has or had retained shed, or she is lacking nutrients especially calcium, in her diet.

Tracie

 

[TRath]

Hello,

Can you let me know what type & brand of UVB light you are using, is it a flourescent tube bulb or a compact or coil light? How old is the UVB light?
Are you using calcium supplementation?
Usually they only bite at their toes & fingers for a couple of reasons which would be she either has or had retained shed, or she is lacking nutrients especially calcium, in her diet.

Tracie

I'm not sure the brand of bulb, it's a coil type we got at the breeder's. I believe it's about 3 months old.
We dust their salad with the calcium suppliment every morning and she all but licks the plate she goes through it so quick.
She will occasionally jump high enough to grab the lid of her tank and haul herself up to wander around upside-down and has pulled out nails that way. We think that may have been the case, and the vet says the smell of blood could have triggered her to go after it.
I've never measured the calcium I give them, just enough to completely dust over the top of the salad in the dish. No issues from our male.
They're both just over a year old, housed seperately and unable to see each other. No health issues with either before now.

 

[zebraflavencs]

You will need to ditch the coil, as they are linked with eye problems. A reptiSun 10.0 is great, and it is a tube bulb. You may wish to increase the amount of prey feeders she gets too. How much is she being fed at a time ?
Janie.

 

[TRath]

You will need to ditch the coil, as they are linked with eye problems. A reptiSun 10.0 is great, and it is a tube bulb. You may wish to increase the amount of prey feeders she gets too. How much is she being fed at a time ?
Janie.

I'll swap out their bulbs tomorrow.
As for feeders, they get 15-20 large crickets each 2-3 times a week plus 4-5 large hornworms about every 2 weeks. Salad is given whenever they're just about out of salad, so 1-2 times a day. On the salad we're using Flukers vitamin spray and Rep-Cal calcium. She eats almost double the salad as he does, even though he's almost twice her size (he's unusually large for their family) and when getting feeders, she seems to be a much more voracious predator.
They've been at this feeding level for about 4 months.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,


The coil light is unfortnately no good for UVB emissions. How long have you been using it for?
As suggested, please get a Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb for much better UVB emissions. She can't absorb her calcium very well without proper UVB exposure.
How is she doing today?


Tracie

 

[TRath]

Checking the light, it's a Repti-Glo 10.0.
She slept with the cone on last night and this morning managed to pry it off, but luckily she only ate her salad and not her toes.
I'm keeping her out with me right now, so she's behaving herself, and the cone proved effective. We're cleaning the wounds with warm soaks and polysporin, and we're going to see if we can find a better cone for when we can't keep eyes on her. Possibly the ones they put on molting birds.

 

[vickson420]

Are you dusting the feeders with calcium and also a multivitamin?I saw you said you were with the veggies but its not as good as the dust.If I had to guess I would say that this is a reaction from a vitamin deficiency.I have only seen this happen from 2 different causes 1)vitamin/calcium deficiency and 2)retained shed.I am basing my decision as to your cause based on the lighting you have been using and the possibility that you are not dusting the feeders.

As for the foot you can wrap it like a cast in a very thick layer and then use medical tape.Usually they cant get it off that way and definately no on the peroxide that will do more damage.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is a bummer but the Reptiglo 10 flourescent tube bulb is not a good light. The wavelength is not very favorable for D3 synthesis & does not produce good UVB emissions. It has also given alot of problems with eyes & also health problems too.
Please do change that bulb out & get a Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb. It will really help her out alot.
Great that the cone worked & she did not chew on her toes more.
How is she doing today?

Tracie

 

[carpetguy]

Hello,


The coil light is unfortnately no good for UVB emissions. How long have you been using it for?
As suggested, please get a Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb for much better UVB emissions. She can't absorb her calcium very well without proper UVB exposure.
How is she doing today?


Tracie

the coil light's put out sufficient uvb do not let anyone kid you .I have successfully raised more than 20 dragon's using them and until they are about 6-8 months old the the coils are in the cage aprox. 5-6" from the highest point of the basking site unfiltered.(the growth rate's are faster that way) I am going to take an educated GUESS cause that is all it is at this point but the self inflicted biting and eye problem's that have been reported may possibly be a result of inbreeding at some point by unethical breeder's trying to make a quick dollar. they may have lost something somewhere in the gene pool you just do not know at this point.(there natural defenses maybe?)I have talked with a very successfull professional breeder when i first started to read complaint's about the coil's about a year ago and he did not have any problem's with them either. Some of these animal's are simply more intelligent than others just like people,dog's or cat's. Some will burn themselve's on hot rock's or eat thing's they should'nt where other's do not.I have spent time in a few U.S. desert's and they can be very hard on the eye's so these animal's are equipped to deal with it.I do what i do non profit because the babies All way's make me smile and it help's to keep my kid's involved in something other than hanging out

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How do you figure that the compacts & coils give out sufficient UVB light emissions? You are kidding, right? The only decent one is the Arcadia D3 which still had a 43% decline rate in 3 months, which if you look at the stats is pretty poor. Compacts & coils put a terrible glare on their eyes & produce uneven lighting of the UVB emissions as well. These dangerous compacts & coils had incorrect phosphor combinations on them which was a complete disaster with their products, while others were just plain poor & not good for anything other than being used to just simply brighten up the tank, that is it.

Look at these charts:
This first chart is only including the Arcadia D3, just read what Dr. Baines has to say about compacts.
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/compactlamps.htm

Note the ESU super coil light:
http://www.russiantortoise.org/uvb.htm

Last of all, most of the compact & coils from Reptisun 5 & 10 were horribly dangerous:
Please read this report:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm


Compare with the flourescent tube bulb results:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttuberesults.htm

I am not even including the results from the mercury vapor bulbs because they are superior over these bulbs that it isn't even worth mentioning.
So do your homework regarding these lights & search this forum as you will find tons of dragon owners who have used compact or coil lights that have had terrible problems from eye problems to metabolic bone disease. Just because you have not had any trouble with yours, doesn't mean that you will not in the future. You have just been lucky thus far, as the compacts & coils do not provide adequate UVB emissions when compared to the flourescent tubes or the mercury vapor bulbs. They are cheap, & ineffective & I do not recommend them. If you kept a gravid female under those lights it would be ineffective for giving her the well needed UVB exposure for her to keep up her 25 Hydroxy levels while being stressed with egg laying because she wouldn't absorb her calcium very well. There have been numerous cases with those problems on this forum, too.
You are missing the point of the problem here. If you are using a compact or coil light, bright white light must be provided in order to allow the pupil to constrict properly especially if you are keeping the compact or coil light at 5-6 inches. That can damage their cornea. The idea is to allow very little light into the eye area which protects the cornea & pupil. If not enough bright light is being used, that is when it becomes hazardous. There is plenty of research with the compacts & coils that you have not found. The eye problems have nothing to do with inbreeding, & everything to do with lighting. Placing the lights that close to any reptile is hazardous & it is simply not the reptiles fault, they are only trying to get what little UVB that light is emitting anyway. Most of these problems are the fault of the new owner not knowing about the light, or not having the husbandry correct in the first place. Though it is not the fault of new keepers either when they are told inaccurate information either by a petstore worker or breeder who has no idea, either. We are all here to learn & to help each other out.
Going out in the desert is not hard on their eyes at all. It is their natural habitat & are designed for that type of lighting & heat. The light spectrum is MUCH brighter than ANY compact or coil light. Thus, that will easily allow the pupil to constrict which allows LESS light into the eye avoiding cornea damage.
What you do not realize is that they may not immediately show metabolic bone disease with inadequate UVB lighting. As reptiles have unique metabolisms, some may utilize calcium more quickly than others leaving some with problems while others tend to deal with it better. We are seeing tremendous problems with metabolic bone disease which is a direct problem to UVB exposure. They simply cannot absorb calcium & other vitamins properly without UVB exposure.
I for one, do not want my reptiles to just exist under a light that barely puts out uW10cm2 when the sun puts out average uW250cm2 or more. The 25 hydroxy levels can only be maintained at adequate levels for so long, until they will begin to experience any problems. Yes, not all show problems, but some may get by for years, only to all of the sudden show tremendous problems "all of the sudden" or "out of nowhere". Nothing is usually "out of nowhere" when it comes to UVB exposure. If they have not had it for years, then, try exposing them to a decent light, & I will guarantee you that within 24 hours, you will have a completely different behavior from that dragon. It makes a night & day difference.
As far as self inflicted biting, all cases we have seen have been directly related to poor UVB exposure as well as hypocalcemia problems & were resolved when the husbandry was corrected. I believe that they are all intelligent, they are just poorly understood as most do not spend the time to get to know their true language.
No use in arguing my points on UVB. Most everyone on this board is a huge advocate of UVB & has done their homework & research when it comes to the compacts & coils. A large majority of people on here have had alot of trouble with them, as well, & do not recommend them.

So, please do not undermine our knowledge & our opportunity to educate new members on topics that we have all studied & worked so hard on to research when you clearly have just a basic understanding of these lights.

Tracie