Behavior change, not eating, sleeping a lot

[Jaskotch]

My dragon Vincent will be 8 months old in about a week or so... I've had him since end of February this year. Up to last week, things have been going great. He's posted spectacular weight gain, checking weekly, he was 145 gms when I got him, then subsequent weeks tipped the scale at 170, 198, 200, 251, 272, 295, 329, 340. His viv is a 4x4 melamine enclosure (my build thread is here http://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=185611 ). He's got the 36" Arcadia desert T5 tube and a Philips halogen- Philips EcoVantage Indoor Outdoor PAR30L "bright light" dimmable flood, 53W. At the basking spot by midday, 103 surface temp measured by temp gun. Basking surface is a level of river rocks, if you move off the spot directly under the flood, temp goes does pretty good, so that he can (and has) basked at a variety of positions on the surface getting what I presume to be the temperature he most wants. Cool side probably 80 on the floor at midday (have a digital temp which is measuring at the hottest spot, the ceiling in the front of the viv, and it gets up to 85F there), and probably 68 - 70F overnight, at least it has been since we are still quite cool here. Our routine of feeding was (is) 10 phoenix worms in the morning, along with a mix of greens (mustard, collard, dandelion, endive, etc) and butternut squash, repti pellets, dragon bits which stays in the viv all day, then afternoon feeding of gut loaded dubias, calcium dusted (no D3) every day and herptivite dusted on Sundays (this is per Carolina Classic's recommendations - also, the dubias get that gut load fortified stuff from Bearded Dragon Co, so he should be getting plenty of vitamins without overloading him by dusting more than once per week). Up until last week, he loved his feedings! Suddenly, his dubia feeding dropped to half (for 2 days), then he stopped being interested in the phoenix worms, too, and last Friday / Saturday / Sunday, he really didn't eat much of anything. Coincident with the loss of appetite, he suddenly started glass dancing- this went on for two days, then he switched over into sleep all day mode. I let him be Friday and Saturday, he basically slept the whole time, then Sunday woke him with a bath and he actually looked OK to me. I let him out to run around and snapped some pics, even of the poop. His pooping has been normal, although down in quantity (due to not eating). Anyway, he did eat a dubia, but went back to sleeping. Yesterday I woke him again in the morning with a soak. He seemed fine... no poop though... and he actually ate all the phoenix worms I offered. He may have tasted his greens- it's really hard to tell sometimes if he's eaten any of that or not, but I continue to offer just as always, so it's there if he wants it. Anyway, he basked for a few hours, then back to sleep and I didn't disturb him in the afternoon to see if he would eat anymore. If he poops today, I'll be getting a fecal, even though I am almost positive there will be nothing there. They don't stink, and look really textbook good to me... Since last Tuesday, he's dropped from 340 to 324, although most of this loss was the first 2 days, when he had a high activity level and low food intake (friday he was 326, yesterday 324...). I will be waking him again today with a soak, and see what happens... just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas. Oh, and yes, the weather here has been awful. I had been able to get him outside a couple of weeks ago, but it turned cold again, so I'm not ruling out the weather's role in this, at all...
pics from 2 days ago, after he'd been sleeping for 2 days and weight ~ 324gms....

 

[brittani299]

Hello Sounds like he is going through slow down. He is at the right age. He should get out of it in a couple weeks. If he doesnt want to eat a lot you can get him squash or chicken flavored baby food.

 

[Jaskotch]

Thanks for the reply! I sent the same email to Vincent's breeder, & he said basically the same thing:
..."I keep reading that you are waking him up. I would not recommend doing this. It sounds like a brumation. The glass surfacing is a sign of being of age for breeding. I would get the fecal done and get back to me to make sure no parasites. And then we can go from there."

I had in my mind that they wouldn't brumate until the winter AFTER they were one year old. Thought in Vincent's case then, he'd wait until next winter! Hadn't got around to reading up on brumation yet DOH...
So I'd like to get a fecal done... but I guess I will leave him alone for now as he is konked out good, and get some baby food and a syringe this afternoon to try and see if I can get him to poop someday soon. Wish I'd saved Sunday's poop, darn it! The more I learn, the more I don't know.... :?

 

[brittani299]

Its all good We are always learning. It would be nice if animals could talk sometimes though se they could tell us whats up Here is a good link to brumation http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/brumation/

 

[Jaskotch]

Great article, thanks!
I see it becomes important to get that poop out, since he did eat 6 phoenix worms yesterday...
gee I wonder how long he will sleep?
keep fingers crossed for the poop to come!!!!!!!

 

[brittani299]

My female is starting to brumate as well. It is hard to say how long they will sleep for. If he goes into deep sleep then I would really worry about the poo. If it becomes a problem you can give him some olive oil orally. It helps them go.

 

[brankoogr]

my female of 8 or 9months does the same sleeps all day in her cave and ocasioally comes out if i offer her phoenix worms or to get hot... i thought brummating was supposed to be arround winter and my worries brought me to this tread... so what you all are saying that sleeping in her cave alot is normal at this time?

 

[Jaskotch]

I think what I got from that article quoted on brumation is that, having ruled out all the other stuff, like lighting, temps, parasites, it can be brumation, and can be any time of the year.
If you haven't already, take a few minutes and check that article out.

 

[brittani299]

It can happen any time of the year

 

[Jaskotch]

but usually, right after you buy a bin-busting quantity of dubias........

 

[Jaskotch]

this issue is still not resolved-
i am not convinced he is brumating. he's nowhere near full grown, and the article here says "it's rare" for one less than a year old to brumate. and it's got to be a little off, doing it in spring, when thoughts should instead be of beardie love.... i left him be for the week (he slept, no eating or drinking), and when i got him out for a soak on Friday, he'd lost 2 more grams. so he was down from a high of 340 grams to 322 grams- also, after the bath on Friday, he was rather alert and do I offered him his usual food, and he ate. He basked, then he ate his afternoon dubias (I offered only 6, usu qty is 20 - 25), then went to sleep. Next morning I got him out for a short soak (he was still sleeping, I woke him), weighed him and he'd put on 4 grams. He acted pretty much the same as Friday, was fairly alert, and had his first poop in a week. It was normal looking in every way but color- had very little color to it at all. So, he ate again Saturday, like Friday. And Sunday went much the same, he put on another 4 grams, now back up to 330. Got a very normal looking poop Sunday, so refrigerated that one and took it to the vet this morning for analysis. Am going to leave him be today, my expectation is that he will sleep all day and night again... I am fine with letting him go into brumation, if that's what's going on, but with the weight loss I was seeing, I didn't think I should let him alone any longer. Especially since I am not having to force feed, what he's eating (after I wake him up and give him a soak), he's eating of his free will. And at least not until I could get a good poop sample analyzed. So that's where I'm at now, waiting to hear from the vet. And Vincent, snoozing away.....

 

[beastiesmommy]

Perhaps he's just making the transition from juvie to adult...starting to slow down on his food intake since he's no longer growing as quickly. His poop analysis will help with knowing if there's any parasites, but considering his age and the time of year, he might just be changing his eating habits and routine with the changing seasons/weather and his age. Just a thought.

 

[Jaskotch]

I don't know... but sleeping 24 hours a day isn't the routine I was hoping for at this point. Just called the vet, of course the doctor is not in today, but they assured me they "processed" the sample I brought in, took pictures of the slides or whatever (?) and that he will call me tomorrow. Vincent has not moved today, he's sleeping soundly and I'm letting him... :|

 

[Jaskotch]

finally, an answer, he has "some pinworms". I asked what about coccidia and he said "no". He asked if I'd raised nighttime temp's and I said I did do that last week- did not add heat, just let it get a little warmer on the basking side and covered up the two big vents at night, and I think I got maybe 5degrees up at night - so maybe 72 - 75F... told him if left alone, Vincent goes right back to sleep, and he said he probably should be seen then, so I'm taking him in @ 2:30 this afternoon.
He is going to treat for the pinworms, if anyone has any advice as to what I should or should not allow, let me know! This is a totally new experience for me.

 

[brittani299]

I would make sure you give some probotics with the dewormer meds. Those meds kill off the good bacteria in their stomachs. Soy yogurt is a good one to use.