Beardsley and MBD-This story has come to an end

UDATE ON PAGE 4 03/28/13

Ok, we've had some not so good luck lately and it's really bumming me out. To the point where I didn't even eat dinner last night
OMG this got long .... sorry !

The background / history .....
our first died within 2 days (from pet smart). - long story short. Nothing done wrong on our part from what we were able to determine with help on here.

the replacement seems to be doing well, other than an issue with a broken tail (right at base just past hips) 1 week after bringing it home. Didn't see what happened, it was fine in the morning, then got home and it was crooked. I suspected a fall off the basking area and weak bones due to either being extremely young and fragile or lack of proper calcium/uvb due to it's time spent at pet smart. (i never thought to look at the lighting in the little enclosure) That appeares to have healed fine, even if with a bend in it.

The newly discovered problem/issue as of last night ....
So, he hasn't wanted to bask for about a week now (double checked basking temps and they are ok - thought maybe got too warm) - didnt' think too much of it - has been eating and pooping just fine - thought I'm just not seeing it because of being at work. But over the weekend he now seems shaky on his legs. Still walks fine on all 4s, but IMO seems shaky. Also had an episode last night where he sort of had a seizure or something - tensed up all muscles for about 5 seconds, (put head all the way back, back legs straight out and was stiff)then relaxed again and seemes fine. Then did it again when moving on his basking log (we placed him on it for some UVB exposure since it seems as though he's not going up there) - and his back end started to slide and his back legs went stiff for a few seconds. Eating like the little piggy he is though.

So, since that made me rather nervous - rightfully so - it's not normal. I made a vet appointment first thing this morning. Wish us luck ! Poor little guy.

I have noticed that his nails seem to be catching in the reptile carpet though - I think we'll be replacing that very soon with tile.
Also over the weekend, we accidentally broke his wood log hide, but he never used it anyway - just sat on top of it. So it was replaced with a second climbing/basking area. I know he seems a bit put off by the change, but that is just attitude. Didn't affect his eating or etc. Just more like a - what the heck! What is THAT ? I'm not goinig near that yet ! Though he did taste it when I put him over there. It's just a piece of driftwood that has been in the tank all along. Just attached to a base to stand it up instead of it lying down.

I'm thinking possible calcium issue (though he is getting the proper supplements so not sure - maybe just not absorbing it properly) or it's a continuing problem and hasn't caught up from petsmart - or maybe a vitamin B issue ? since the both present basically the same way with muscle issues and spasms. ? I've been watching very carefully - for like a half our at a time, literally - to see if I see any of the tell tale signs of involuntary muscle movements when just sitting. Nothing. Not a single twitch. Eyes are clear, no runny eyes, nose, mouth - seems alert - watches your every move - not quite as active though, but that may be due to a recent change in the furniture in the tank.

Hoping not anything to do with the broken vertebre in his tail causing issues with his spine

Going to a Herp vet in Bristol CT tongiht - if anyone has used them, let me know. They are the closest, but certainly not the cheapest ! Got good reviews on-line though - if that counts for anything. Got a few quotes - $75 for the visit and $33 for a fecal. Haven't given me estimates for blood work or x-rays - said I need to speak with the vet. ugh. They ask that you bring a photo of the enclosure and fill out a questionairre similar to what you guys have on here - and bring it with you.

I've done the tank set up before on here, and we're all good there - quick run down though just FYI.
24" reptisun 10 tube mounted inside tank - 2 months old. 55g. Repticarpet (no sand, etc.). 2 basking areas, one at 103.2, the other at 96. Cool area runs about 80. Using digital probe I use for hatching chicken eggs so know it's accurate (eggs are pretty tempermental to heat and humidity to get proper development) and Basking spot 1 8" from uvb Basking spot 2 11" from uvb (I did measure and not guess). eating approx 30-40 crix per day dusted 1x per day with RepCal Calcium during the week. Dusted 1x per day 1-2 times per week with RepCal Herptivite multivitamin. Also picks on salad offerd daily that consists of what the grocery store happens to have - generally mustard, collard, squash, occassional fruit such as grapes and canteloupe. Approx 2.5 months old and 8" long last time I measured last week. Has been shed in this order, tail, legs, body, tail and now legs are getting ready again now.
White houshold bulbs used for heat. Poops once to twice per day. Big moist ones. Urates seem normal. not runny, black or otherwise un-poop like.
baths are our weak point. Seems like by the time everything is set and done at night - there isn't enough time to bathe and warm before lights out (for us). So, it's only been about once per week for about a half hour on the weekends.

 

[daner923]

Is your basking spot 18 or 8 inches from the UVB? If it is 18 inches, that is much too far and may be causing his calcium issues. It should be 6-8 inches away.

 

[DTRM30]

Basking spot one is 8" away, I guess I typed that a bit confusing - it could look like 18 ....my bad. Basking spot two is 11" away. It's sort of the middle area, not as hot, but warmer than the cool area - he was using all three up until the past few days.

But still digesting just fine - so must be at the right temps somewhere along during the day. perhaps using the basking areas when we're at work (kids at school).

Hopefully that isn't the issue - i really don't have any other way of getting it closer - he's not climbing for whatever reason, and the screen is not strong enough to support the weight of the fixture hanging from it. I have it attached to the glass with heavy duty double stick tape, and a small wire for back up incase the tabe fails. Any lower and he hides from it. That was the issue I had in the beginning, so had to move it up to the top of the tank (inside, not on the screen).

The plan is, since he seems to no longer like the logs(branches whatever you want to call them), (maybe he's not comfortable on it any more because he grew) - is to gather some stones/left over pavers, etc from the yard, wash and bake them, and create a rock ledge sort of thing - that is more of a gradual steps i guess.

But I want to see what the vet says tonight before I make any tank changes - I don't want any undue stress from changing things around if there is a problem. Hopefully it won't be all that bad. Calcium and Vitamins I can fix. Messed up vertebre because Pet Smart is stupid, I can't fix

 

[DTRM30]

OK - $250 later there is good news and really bad news

We've had Beardsley for a whole 6 weeks - from PetSmart.

So, the good news - our husbandry and feeding/supplementation is good. She complimented us on being one of the best she's seen and only had a few minor suggestions. One being shorter more frequent baths, and longer disinfecting time on the reptile carpet. That was it. Oh, and that once he gets better, to just use calcium powder with out the D3 but for now it's OK.

The bad news - and its really bad

Fecal results will be in tomorrow - keeping fingers crossed no major issues - though not expecting good news at this point based on the rest.

I feel like such a bad parent and keep going through the should-haves.
I know I shouldn't beat myself up, but I do anyway.
I had gotten information in February, figuring I'd give Beardsley a couple of months to settle in. He was doing so well - or so we thought.

He had no outward signs that anything was even remotely wrong - other than a broken tail that I figured was a calcium deficiency, but with proper UVB and supplements thought it was corrected. until Monday, and believe me - I would watch him for like hours - analyzing every move and blink - and it's gone downhill fast since then. He has severe calcium deficiency. Bone density loss, fractures, and seizures. And NO signs of it until Monday - I feel like I should have seen something - anything - It just doesn't seem right - I'm so picky - everyone says I make a big deal out of nothing and read into suff too much - but the x-rays don't lie. You can't even see his toe bones the density is so minimal.

His x-rays show his broken tail, of course - we knew that - and another fracture from about 2 months or so ago that we had no clue about in his arm that has healed and has some buildup on it. That was before we even got him. His spine has started to curve just above his hips. Can see it now that she pointed it out, but it is slight and I hadn't noticed. It's not a hump, but more of an S when you look down at his back. Well, a backward S.

She feels that the curvature may cause problems in older age for walking and that he may always have problems with his back legs from it - and the broken tail will make it difficult to draw blood since the break is right where the vein they use is. She can't say if he'll have chronic pain or not from all of this.

She also said that had I not brought him in (glad I decided to leave work early and not wait until Friday like I was going to) - he likely would not survive much longer - gave him about a month or so. She advised us as nicely as she could that "there is no way to know if his next seizure will be his last".

Beardsley now has liquid calcium 2x per day for 2 weeks, then 1x per day after. We didn't discuss long term today. Just until his follow up next month. He also has pain meds 1x per day.

She talked about euthanasia but didn't actually say it that way. She said we need to consider his quality of life and if he will be in chronic pain but that we should see if he improves with the treatment because he's so young.

He has me worried now too, because he didn't want anything to eat this afternoon which is very unlike him. He ate 18 crickets this am, but had no interest in his second feeding just before we left for the vet. On top of that, we've had to remove all of his basking/climbing furniture to reduce the risk of further fractures. We can make a gentle ramp for him to a platform with a hide under it, but that is it, and it can't be high. I worry that this change will also interrupt his feeding.

Unfortunately, at his next appointment on April 15th, we'll be needing to decide if he is improving and if not, what our next decision is going to be. I don't want to think that far and want to believe that the liquid calcium WILL work. His spine may never straighten and his tail def. not, but he can pull through this - I know he can ! Right ?

I'm in shock with all of this. I even called my sister who works with spinal re-hab and has her doctorate in the field - to see what she thought of the spinal issue. She was encouraging - saying I shouldn't blame myself and that I was a good mom - she hasn't taken her tortoise to the vet in 3 years. That aside, she felt that if the calcium works, the curvature should not progress or get worse. She mentioned perhaps fashioning a brace for him like a person would wear out of popsicle sticks - but because is right by his hips, his back legs prevent any type of splint.

I feel a bit overwhelmed - one day at a time I guess. Lets just hope he keeps feeding well and is feeling better in a day or two with the calcium in his body.

 

[daner923]

I'm so sorry to hear about all that! That must be truly overwhelming. Hopefully the liquid calcium will help. I'm sure others will tell you the same, but I would stick with the D3. Not sure why she said that- unless you are you using an MVB bulb or an Arcadia, it is believed that beardies cannot make enough D3 from just a ReptiSun type bulb. Is it warmish where you live? If it is, you should take him outside in a plastic bin lined with towels, and shady spot with something draped over part of the tank. 30 minutes of natural sunlight will do him more good in absorbing the liquid calcium than a whole day under a UVB light. I'm sorry you've had so much bad luck with beardies so far... I also suggest you PM Tracie (Drache613). She is a real expert, and may be able to offer you further advice. She will probably ask for details on the meds, and a copy of the x-ray if you have it.

 

[DTRM30]

Thanks - talking seems to help at bit anyway

I WISH it was warm Today was a warm day at 52 but its getting cold again tomorrow. I'm in not so sunny and warm CT. It's getting more like Seattle everyday I think. Cloudy, rainy, chilly - ugh. anyway.

I was so worried about him getting chilled that I kept the heat in my car on high and brought along our digital probe and kept it in his box so my son could monitor the temps ! Kept him at 87 for the 45 minute ride there and the 45 ride back.

I'm in no rush to stop the D3 right now - that is the last of my concerns right now. I believe she said it because of the risk of D3 overdose. But she said for now to continue it as he could benefit from the supplemental D. I'll see if I can pm her tomorrow or maybe in a few days. I have a lot of work to do to get his viv re-arranged. I need to make something for him and fast so he's not in a bare tank for too long. Poor guy seemed so sleepy when he got home. It was a tough visit - pretty stressful. though he did keep licking the box he was in to see if it was edible I guess which everyone found amusing at least. They said he was still "spunky" even if not walking around. Did push up on his front feet and look around and didn't just lay like a pancake. Tried several times to escape from his box too. So I guess that's good - can still move around a bit.
It's just the eating thing that worries me. All the calcium in the world won't help if he's lost his appetite. I don't know if I have the ambition do the force feeding (though I probably would if it comes to it - I'm a sucker for animals - everyone says I should have been a vet because I never give up on them)

So now I have a diabetic dog and a hypocalcemic lizard - :? Insulin 2x daily and calcium 2x daily. Lets hope my birds don't come down with any ailments !

Well, today is over. Tomorrow is another day. Here's to Beardsley's recovery !

 

[daner923]

Cheers to that!

You may want to look into baby food and a plastic syringe (no needle) to make sure he keeps eating. It isn't too hard, especially if he likes the food. If you would like more info, let me know.

 

[DTRM30]

Good news !
he ate 22 crickets this morning. Boy he seemed hungry ! Wasted no time in gobbling them from my fingers - didn't think twice or blink - didn't even hesitate, really. I feel much better ! Go Beardsley !

Seems Ok with his climbing basking areas removed. i did move his heat lower to increase the temps on the floor for today - and will have to either move his UVB tonight or create a gentle ramp for him to get close enough to it. Need to see which will be easier. i think building a gentle ramp. The UVB will be a pain to remove with about 90 yards of double stick tape on the back of it.

After talking on here, and speaking with my sister - (who was fairly blunt and basically called me an ***** for even thinking of doubting my actions since we've only had him for 6 weeks and there were no visible signs of serious problems until a few days ago after I said I should have taken him to the vet earlier when I suspected a broken tail but felt there wasn't much the vet would be able to do about it except pain management) - I have good hopes for a recovery for him. No seizures yet today. Just a matter of his body being able to produce enough D3 to utilize the calcium at this point I guess. I guess he was just good at hiding his weakening body. Someone needs find a way to tell them that they have to tell their mommies/daddies when the don't feel good and not hide it !

Granted, I held each one for him to eat from my hand so he didn't have to chase them, but he look good considering. Not moving around too much, and taking his medicines like a good little boy.

I do need to Pm Tracie though - I have a question I want to ask her. I'm going to call the vet as well. Didn't get a copy of the x-ray but would like one. No word on fecal yet (keeping fingers crossed no major issues with that! I'm so nervous waiting for the phone call). I wanted to know if I should continue the dust supplemnt/D3 while treating with the liquid. Can't remember if the vet told me or not. There was a lot she was going over regarding his prognosis and possible future problems he may encounter.

But here is what he's taking. He weighed in at 35g

.04 cc Metacam .5mg/ml once daily for pain management
.02cc Calcium glubionate syrup 2x daily for 2 weeks, 1x daily thereafter.

 

[DTRM30]

More good news

Fecal is negative

One less thing to worry about. I think he's already feeling a little better - I asked how he was, and my son said he was up on his front arms looking around instead of being a pancake on the floor. I know it's going to be several weeks, but my hopes are up that he's going to get better and live a long and spoiled life.

He seems to enjoy being handed his crickets instead of having to catch them for himself ... Ate ok for his second meal - only 12, but he had like 22 this morning and was by his salad dish so I'll check to see if he ate any. I know if he eats a ton in the morning, the afternoon is generally less.

Tonight I'm going to make his new platform and ramp. I'll try and take some pics ....

 

[daner923]

That's great news. The liquid calcium often has a quick and noticeable impact, but the full recovery is a longer process. Glad you're see progress already though!

 

[bumblebee]

I'm so sorry to hear about Beardsley's MBD! That's really great that he's eating well for you! Beardies are really resilient, so there's definitely hope that he'll get better!

I know you mentioned building him a ramp, so I thought you might want to see this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82921&start=105 On page 8, there are some pictures of how someone made a ramp for their beardie who is missing parts of all 4 of his legs. It might give you some ideas

 

[DTRM30]

Awesome, Thanks

that is such a sad and happy story all at the same time ! I need to finish reading it when I get home

 

[Blinksmama]

It really stinks that your little guy has MBD
Quite a few members have dealt with, or are dealing with MBD of varying severities. I hope the support and advice you recieve here, helps to make Beardsley's road to recovery an easier one.
I'm sure I speak for many when I say we're rooting for you and Beardsley!!

Amy

 

[DTRM30]

Thanks for the encouraging words ! I think I'm more optomistic than my vet right now - I'm so neurotic with him i can't believe this slipped by me. It still bothers the heck out of me !

anyway - I have some crazy idea - what if ......since it's not going to be in the 70's for quite some time where I live (like another 2 months or so)
I get my car really warm - as in really really really warm - heat on high, put him in his fluffy towel padded shoe box for transporting,
and position him on the passenger side so that the sun was shining on him, the opened the opposite side window to let the UVB hit him?
I'd have my digital probe to keep an eye on temp - I could do that for say 30 minutes whenever I had the time ...
I know natural sunlight would be good for him - do you think it would work ? Would 30 minutes be enough ? I have no problem sitting by the open window reading while he's on the warm side ...

I know - grasping for anything here to help him get on the right track and on the path to living a better life.

This morning - I even picked him up - and held him like 2" from the UVB light for about 5 minutes - it was all I had time for - I'll probaby do it again tonight for longer. His new ramp and platform is almost done. I think to get him used to it and encourage him - that will be where he is fed. Platform = food .... (only with them it's orange bucket = food so the come running ) works for my chickens should work for him I hope ! this will hopefully get him more

otherwise, it's only day two, but so far so good I suppose. Eating extremely well - and seems to be moving around a bit more. Though those back legs are still shaky (expected). Poor guy, I apologized to him this morning ... for being a bad mommie. I know it's more for me than for him, but he just kinda gives that little head tilt and looks at me like - "it's OK - do you have food ?" - since hand feeding - everytime I put my hand in there he tries to eat from it even if there is nothing there ... silly boy. Just lunges before looking. Someday he's gonna miss and I'll get bit - but I don't really care. I've been bitten by garter snakes, can't be much worse.

 

[daner923]

The key is to have the sun shining directly on him, not through glass, which filters it all out. If you can rig it up like that, then sure! Also, I disagree about the bite not being worse haha. I got bit by Max the other day (my fault), but those back teeth are like razors. Snakes don't have teeth like that. I had a corn snake that bit a friend of mine during a shed, and he said it didn't hurt that much. Max bit my finger and I have a nice cut in my finger now. Ouch.