Beardie won't stop rolling

[mistyf]

This is going to be a long post, but I want to give all the info that might be needed in order for someone to help. We got Yoshi a few months ago after losing our first beardie, Cynder (some of you may remember me from my posts about her last fall). He came from the "large chain pet supplier" that I work at, so I know he was pretty young. His current age is estimated at about 5-6 months. I have the proper setup for his viv: 40 gallon breeder tank, ceramic tile bottom, homemade basking platform, ReptiSun 10.0 linear inside tank which he can get within 8 inches of (just ordered a new one since it is now 6 months old), 100w Zoomed basking spot lamp, and a CHE at night. I measure my temps with the good digital thermometer w/ probe from walmart. Cool side is at 77.5 and basking spot is at 110, with probe on basking spot surface. He is fed small nymphs from the Dubia colony I started with last BD. Collard and turnip greens offered, but he never takes them. I do have to admit that I haven't been deligent about the dusting with calcium and vitamins. And, with his current condition, I already feel plenty of shame and guilt about it. So please don't bash me. I know I messed up.

Last Thursday my husband came home to find our cat INSIDE Yoshi's tank. He's a pretty fat cat, and the screen lid couldn't hold his weight. A thorough inspection showed a few marks on Yoshi, but no definate puncture. That night Yoshi became completely unresponsive. There were several times that I thought he was gone, not breathing, no moving, nothing. We didn't think he would make it through the night. I said my goodbyes, wrapped him in his blanket, and put him in his viv. I went to bed wondering how to tell my son that we had to bury another baby beardie. To my surprise (and delight) Yoshi was still holding on in the morning, so I rushed him to the vet. She couldn't find any real injuries either, but prescribed an antibiotic (Sulfamethoxazole & Trimethoprim) just incase. I also picked up some Reptiboost since he wasn't eating anything. He really seemed to perk up with the meds and a few soaks. Still uninterested in dubias, but seemed to like the ReptiBoost.

Last night he took a turn for the worse. Started doing what I can only describe as "alligator death rolls" all over his viv. He also begin "stargazing", but only at the end of the "roll" and no other time. He has continued doing them all day today, seemingly once an hour, almost by the clock. The only thing that prevents them is wrapping him in his blanket so that he can't move much. I started looking on this site and came to the decision that it's probably MBD. My research led me to realize that he has been showing another sign and I just didn't see it. As I said before, he's around 5-6 months old... but he only weighs 10 grams and is barely over 6 inches long! He hasn't grown since we got him! How did I miss this?! I'm so ashamed I can't stop crying as I type this.

But back to the problem at hand, I don't know what to do. I can't decide if the cat had anything to do with his current condition or not. Could this be a neurological problem brought on by the stress and shock? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and I put some RepCal Juvenile Bearded Dragon pellets in a coffee grinder with some ReptaBoost and RepCal Phophorus-Free Calcium with Vit.D3 powder and mixed it all up. I've been disolving that in warm water and feeding it to him with a suringe. He'll only take a couple drops at a time, so I've been doing it every few hours. I want to get the liquid calcium from Bug-De-Lite, but don't know if I should buy the regular one or the Calci-Blast. Please help me.

Edited to say: I don't have the money for another $200 vet bill, so please don't just tell me that's what I need to do.

 

[mistyf]

The only way to completely remove the cat is to either get rid of it (which I won't do) or put Yoshi back in the spare room where he'd be alone 90% of the time. So that isn't really an option. I don't think the MBD suddenly came out of nowhere. With his stunted growth, I'm afraid it's been there all along. And I missed it.

 

[mistyf]

It's ok, long post. Fecal was done at vet Friday. Everything looked normal. There are no visible wounds. I've been mixing a little calcium powder in with the boost and pellets. Waiting to see what Tracie says before ordering liquid calcium.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Everything has pretty much been covered, thanks for all of the information. Sorry he is having this issue right now!
Your old UVB light that you replaced, was it a Reptisun 10 also? It is mounted in the tank which is great. Is there a plastic cover/lens over the light?
How much calcium have you given in the past, not often?
That is probably the main culprit, not getting enough calcium. Even with getting proper UVB, he has been able to naturally synthesize D3 to help retain bone integrity but without supplemental calcium during his growth phases his 25Hydroxy levels are probably low. Foods do have some calcium in them & the feeders have some also, but insects are also high in phosphorus so it needs to be balanced back out.
Have you seen any twitching of the fingers or toes or head tremors? The rolling is disturbing to say the least. Is he dark in color right now?
Do you happen to have any pictures of him also?
Your setup sounds fine, overall, with the lighting & the temperatures right now.
Are you needing liquid calcium for him? He would absorb that better than the powder right now.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

 

[mistyf]

silverado: It's hard to know for sure, but I think he took in about 1ml of the mix I was making yesterday. I bought several different kinds of baby food today, and so far he LOVES the squash. Ate about 1ml of that so far. I'll give him more later with the ReptaBoost and calcium powder added to it. I ordered the liquid calcium last night, so it should be here in a few days.

Drache613: I hadn't been giving him hardly any calcium before all this started, and I still feel horrible about it. I just hope that all the stuff I'm doing now isn't too little too late. As I said above, I got some baby food today and he went crazy for it. So he has an appetite, which is a good sign, right? And yes, the current bulb is a ReptiSun 10.0 linear. It just hit the 6 month mark (almost to the day), so I ordered a replacement yesterday morning. It should be here in a couple days. I also bought some unflavored pedialite and will soak him in that and water later. He hasn't really had any leg or head tremors, just the rolling. I did notice that he's developed a small hump in his back, near the tail. I know that wasn't there before. No paralasis though, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he'll come through this with no permanent damage. Do you think his growth is stunted so much that he'll always be really small? My poor baby.

Here are a few pics of Yoshi and his viv. I added the blankets when the rolling started so he (hopefully) wouldn't hurt himself when he falls off. I can't take the platform out or he won't be close enough to the lights.

The twist in his back is just from the way he's laying. It isn't really like that.

Edited: I was wrong, his back is like that now. His toes are curled and he looks darker today, and less responsive. I'm losing him, aren't I ? And it's my own stupid fault.

 

[ShannyBeard]

Everyone else has chimed in with other advice and they are all spot on. I just want to advise this:

You said to get him away from the cat you would need to get rid of the cat OR put his tank in a spare room where he would be alone 90% of the time. DO THAT. Just put him in the other room. It is honestly best for him to be alone 90% of the time, rather than risk any other cat problems.

I used to be a cat owner and I know they are very evil and cannot be trusted. I say that with a laugh, not being mean, but it is somewhat true.

I think your beardie would rather be safe and alone in a quiet room.

 

[mistyf]

I got him to take another 0.6ml of ReptaBoost and ReptiCal disolved in water. I can't afford the Reptiworms right now, and I don't think he'd eat them anyway. The baby food, Boost, Cal, and the Calci-Blast I ordered from Tracie should be enough for now. I also gave him a pedialite/water bath. The rolling is happening more often today. I've been trying to pick him up when I see it starting. He still spasms like crazy in my hand, but I least he isn't rolling into or off of things. My husband made a new top for the viv that the cat can't get into. But, just to be safe, the cat will be staying in our room when nobody is home to supervise. Here are a couple more pics of him. You can see how little he is compared to my hand, and I have pretty small hands.

 

[ShannyBeard]

I am glad you got the cat out of the situation. That is helpful. The other thing I would advise is to remove ALL of his cage furniture except for his hide. He needs room to have his rolling and spasms without getting injured from his own stuff, and also if he decides to climb and then falls off, he can be injured.

Since he has MBD, his bones cannot handle impact. They cannot handle a fall or the bumps on stuff that he could have considering his spastic movements.

I have a dragon with severe MBD that I have been nursing back to health. He has had no furniture for safety reasons.

You will need to configure the basking temp to floor level where he will lay flat on the floor. This will be much more conducive to him getting the correct basking temps since he can be on the floor much easier. Also the UVB will need to be lowered so he can be closer to it.

I did that for my dragon. Lowered the UVB and made the basking spot on the floor and it made all the difference in the world.

 

[Claudiusx]

I am so sorry to hear about your baby.

I would take Shanny's advice with the cage furniture.

-Brandon

 

[mistyf]

OK, removed all furniture except hide and layed blankets over the tile. I lowered the basking bulb, but I have to get some more command strips before I can lower uvb. I'll do that after I pick my son up from school in just a little while.

 

[Claudiusx]

What are your temps reading now? You don't want them too hot/cold.

-Brandon

 

[Drache613]

Hello Misty,

The main thing that I can suggest now is to try & change your UVB positioning. Can you get it mounted directly overhead from him alongside of the basking light? Try to get a fixture around it, to help direct the UVB emissions downward. It will take some of the glare off of the light also. When tube bulbs are mounted without a fixture around them, the UVB refracts everywhere without having a good direction so he is missing some good UVB exposure with it bouncing around so much. The metal ones with reflective backing are the best types to get. You can usually find the middle of the road ones at Home Depot or Lowes. The command strips will work great for changing the UVB fixture.
How is he doing today? Has he eaten?
He is small, but hopefully you can get some size back on him soon. The lump at the base of his spine is indicative to metabolic bone disease, but I realize that you already know that. All we can do is try to get him better & more mobile. Let us know how he is doing today.
That is great you are changing the position & distance of the lighting for him so he can bask on the floor of his tank. He will be safer for that & the towels will help him out a lot, for comfort.

Tracie

 

[ShannyBeard]

OK, removed all furniture except hide and layed blankets over the tile. I lowered the basking bulb, but I have to get some more command strips before I can lower uvb. I'll do that after I pick my son up from school in just a little while.

This is a great step in the right direction. I agree with Tracie's last post about the UVB and trying to get it more directed towards him, so he can benefit from it the most. Thank you for working so hard to get all of this corrected. You are certainly going to need to play nurse to his every need several times a day and really focus on him. My rescue dragon has taken a lot of my time and attention, and steady dedication. Everything you do from this point forward is a huge big deal to his survival. I hope he pulls through and starts having normal movement and behavior soon!

 

[mistyf]

Thank you all again for your advice/support.

Silverado: baby food I'm using is BeechNut Homestyle Stage 1. I got the Squash (squash & water), Sweet Potatoes (sweet potatoes & water), Sweet Carrots (carrots & water), Chicken & Chicken Broth (finely ground chicken & chicken broth), and Chiquita Bananas (bananas, water, citric acid, asorbic acid (vitamin C)). I've only tried the Squash so far, but he seemed to really like it.

Brandon: temps are at 107 (basking spot on floor) and 75 on cool side

Tracie: I got the UVB lowered, the closet he can get to it is 6 inches. I have been thinking aboout getting a new fixture for it anyway, since these cheap walmart ones don't always like to stay on. I just bought this one a few weeks ago and it's already starting to randomly go out. Not sure how I could get it mounted above him, but it has to be lower right now anyway. Maybe I could hang it above him with a chain or something. Then it would even be adjustable. Hmmmmmmm

Shanny: Thank you for the support. I have no problem focusing my attention and time on him when I'm home. I'm just worried about the days I have to work. Thankfully I was off yesterday and today, but I go back tomorrow. So much can happen in the 9hrs a day I'll be gone.

 

[mistyf]

I hate waiting, but don't we all. I got him to take his antibiotics, and eat a little more of the baby food. He's developed the twiching now too. It usually starts a minute or so before a rolling fit. It kills me that I did this to him, and that I can't do anything to stop it. All he wants to do is sleep, and the twitching/rolling don't usually start until I make him get up. I keep wondering if I'm doing the right thing by making him continue to go through this, that I'm just causing him more pain. I can't tell if he's still fighting or has given up. Please, somebody tell me what to do.