Beardie leaning left

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I don't know if this was the correct place to post this, but i've noticed that since i've had Nova, he always seemed to lean to the left. He's always been incredibly clumsy when hunting his bugs, and almost always faceplants the floor when attempting to catch a bug. I've always thought since he'd always been like this, it was just normal for him, even though it worries me a lot. But i feel like he's been doing it more, and more often. I also noticed when feeding him just now that his toes had curled underneath themselves and he just stood on them as they were, like he didn't seem to realise, or care. I've not seen him do this before so it's got me worried. He's also been tilting his head to the left whenever he catches his food. Even if i hand feed him a cricket from his right hand side, his head always tilts left, but only when eating insects. He doesn't do it when eating his greens, and he doesn't do it when he's just sitting around or moving.

So i got Nova at 5 months old, and he's always been this way since i got him. He's about to turn 11 months in december. He lives in a 5 x 2 x 2 ft viv, with plenty of ventilation.
Basking bulb is a 50w halogen house bulb. UVB light is arcadia T5 on his back wall, due to be replaced in December. It's 12 inches from the floor and he has full access to it. He also currently has a CHE running to keep his ambient temps higher.
Cool end is 24-26C. Basking spot is from 37-40C in different areas on the rock. Humidity is at 31% constantly.
Heat bulbs are controlled by Habistat pulse-proportional and dimming thermostats. Basking bulb and UVB are on a timer, and the CHE currently stays on all day and night. And each are monitored using exo terra digital thermometers and hygrometer. The basking spot temps are monitored using a temp gun.

He eats watercress, spring greens, green beans, and occasionally carrot, apple, mango.
Livefood is crickets, and locusts. Sometimes superworms, and i'll give him a wax worm every now and then as a treat. His greens are dusted in calcium. He is fed insects twice a day (tends to eat 15-20 each meal) and the morning meal is dusted with calcium five times a week. He also has herptivite multi-vitamins two times a week dusted on his insects.

I took him to a good reptile vet a month or two after getting him for a general check up and they confirmed he was in good health, his bones weren't soft, he didn't have parasites, and the vet never noticed the leaning since he only does it where it's fairly obvious when he's hunting his bugs. He otherwise seems perfectly healthy, apart from the leaning problem, and i hope there's nothing really wrong with him, but i'm worried that won't be the case.

I can take him back to my vet if needed, but i'm not sure what to ask them to do with him. I know these can be signs of MBD, something neurological, or something else? I can't imagine he'd have MBD unless i've done something terribly wrong without realising it.


Here's a few images. The top one you can see how he leans. The next two how how he faceplants the floor, and his toes are curled under themselves. He probably fell on his face on 4 out of 18 insects this time. And the last one is another of his toes.

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Any advice is welcome. Thank you!
 

Novathebeardie

Member
Original Poster
Updating on Nova :) He's doing really well. After it was suggested that it might be his eyesight, i kept a close eye on him and noticed he can see perfectly fine, so i had been checking around his ear, and looking up inner ear problems in beardies.
Yesterday he had a huge bit of shed come away from the inside of his ear and the surrounding area which hadn't been visible at all. It came off his face and i continued watching him to see how he was acting now that had happened, and i've just fed him today and he's absolutely fine now! I'm guessing the shed inside his ear was affecting him. He didn't miss any of his insects this time, no head tilt and he stood up just fine.
I'm still not sure why he has always seemed to do this, but he is young so maybe every time he's shed (which has been very often), the bits inside his ears have been affecting his balance? He seems perfectly fine now which i'm so relieved about :)
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Wow, well that took care of his leaning then, amazing. I guess the skin/shed was thick enough that it was interfering with his senses. I am glad that is taken care of! :D
Yeah, is he still folding his fingers over?

Tracie
 

Novathebeardie

Member
Original Poster
I haven't noticed him folding his fingers over yet. I've watched him as he's been running around his viv and he hasn't been walking on his toes, but i'll have to make him chase one of the crickets to see if he still does it when hunting. I'll update again (probably tomorrow) when he has his morning meal :)
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

That would be terrific if he was walking normally also! At least he has made the huge improvements on his hunting & isn't leaning now. :D
Definitely let us know how he progresses.

Tracie
 

Novathebeardie

Member
Original Poster
He's still eating fine thankfully, and while he's running his toes don't fold under, but sometimes when he stops right before catching the cricket, that's when his toes on his left front foot will fold under and he'll stand on them until he moves off again. It happened a couple of times when i fed him this morning, and just now when i fed him again. He was doing the same on his right front foot as well when i posted this, but it seems to now be only his left.
What could be causing him to do that? :(
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is he doing today?
I wouldn't think he would have metabolic bone disease because you have a great UVB tube bulb.
Can you post a picture of the tank setup? You mentioned it was mounted on the back wall so it isn't directly overhead? Can he get right underneath of it?
It is recommended to have the UVB source directly overhead so that it refracts directly downward & not out to the side. Does the fixture have a reflector built into it?
The supplementation frequency should be fine for him. Sometimes if they go through a few big growth spurts they can use up a lot of their calcium reserves & fall short of calcium if they didn't take in enough for some reason.
You could consider getting a liquid calcium to replace the powder for awhile, to see if that helps.
Is he still eating well?

Tracie
 

Rankins

Gray-bearded Member
Has the dragon ever been tested for atadenovirus? It can cause neurological symptoms, but MBD does cause some of what you are describing also.
 

Novathebeardie

Member
Original Poster
The UVB does have a reflector on it, which i thought could help with pointing the light where it would need to be? His viv is 2ft tall (he likes to climb so i was going to try building up some places for him to climb around the viv) so i wasn't sure whether the uvb would reach him if it was on the ceiling :?
When i fed him today, he did seem to be leaning again. He's not falling on his face, and can still catch his insects well, but he does seem to be leaning.
I'd definitely get him some liquid calcium if that would help him even a little. Do you have any recommendations on which brand to buy?
He hasn't been tested for atadenovirus, which is something i would be more than happy to do if it helps him.

Here are some more photos.

This is his viv setup.
87204-5963789276.jpg

The bulb is a slightly under 12 inches away from the floor/his basking spot. He can get directly underneath it here, which is where he usually is.
87204-4321560194.jpg

But he'll sometimes sit on the bark tunnel (which he usually sits on to poop) which is also directly underneath the uvb bulb as well.
87204-1668580473.jpg

He doesn't spend much time elsewhere in his viv to be honest, unless he's eating greens at the cool end, or running around in the morning before basking.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I can see the reflector. Even though he can get somewhat underneath it, the light still is to the side & a lot of the UVB refracts outward away from him. It is always best to mount all lights directly overhead to decrease eye strain & increase UVB exposure.
Can you mount it directly overhead right by the basking light? The top is a screen top? The UVB is long enough that it would reach him just fine. He would benefit more from it being straight overhead so he can get directly underneath of it, too.
The reflector is pointing & directing it outward where it has no direction so a lot isn't really reaching him. If it was pointing downward, more would be directly right onto him.
You can try to find the Zilla brand liquid calcium, it is pretty decent. You can also find liquid calcium online, too.
If you wanted to get him tested for Adeno, you can get more information on my site at:

www.thepats.info

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
 

Novathebeardie

Member
Original Poster
So i'd been trying to get Nova booked in with my exotic vet, but they've been fully booked up for quite a while since they're the best ones around my area. Today his head tilt was too bad for me to leave him alone so i just about managed to get him booked in this morning when someone else cancelled their appointment. He's staying at the vets overnight as i wanted them to keep an eye on him, and he's having skull x-rays and blood tests tomorrow. They would have done them today but everything was booked up.
I'm going to change around things in his viv to have his uvb light overhead instead of to the side. The whole viv is solid, bit i can drill some holes in the top to thread the wires through and get it in the right place. I'm also ordering some liquid calcium from online once i find a place to get some.
I'm really hoping he'll be okay and i'm prepared to do anything i can for him so i can keep updating once i get more information tomorrow.
 

Novathebeardie

Member
Original Poster
Final Update


Since my last update just over a month ago, i got the x-ray results back and there was nothing abnormal. Blood tests showed nothing abnormal so we started him on a 10 day course of loxicom and marbocyl. He started improving a little it seemed, and his balance was a little bit better. When the course ended, i took him back to the vet for a second time to discuss what to do next. We decided to continue the medication for another two weeks.

About a week later, he just stopped eating. I could tell he wanted to eat because he would lick his lips like he does whenever he wants some food, but he just wouldn't accept anything. I took him to my vet again for him to check him over. He had plenty of fat stores in his tail to keep him going for the time being. His head tilt was getting a little bit worse again, but we decided to continue medication for another 3-4 weeks.

Last week i took him back to the vets for a 4th time because his tail had some stuck shed and it was shedding horribly, so i wanted to take him in to make sure his tail under the shed parts was okay. That was all fine, and his head tilt and balance didn't seem worse from last time but hadn't improved.

I gave him a bath last night and he really enjoyed it. He drank a bit of water and got really comfortable so he started falling asleep. I took him out and dried him off and I spent some time with him for two hours before his lights went off for him to sleep.
This morning when he woke up, he just curled himself up to the left, he couldn't walk and was just dragging himself around his viv in circles. his head was tilted so badly to the left that it was pretty much vertical and he couldn't stay on his basking rock without falling off.
I phoned up my vets and booked him an appointment with his regular vet for as soon as possible. When i got him there and took him out of his carrier, he flipped on to his back and couldn't get back over. he became really disorientated and struggled a lot, but i managed to support him in my hands so he was upright but totally leaning to his left. The vet said it's become clear that he has some sort of neurological problems and there really was nothing else we could do for him, so the kindest thing to do was to put him to sleep. I managed to calm him down before they took him out the back so his wasn't too worried.

I said goodbye to him and he's now gone. I'm getting him cremated and bringing him home in a casket with his name engraved on it.
That all happened two hours ago and i'm still just so upset, I loved him so much and i'm so heartbroken and devastated. I wish i had more time with him and i already miss him so much.

So i thought i'd just do a final update for anyone interested, even though it's been about a month since my last update. Thank you everyone who tried to help me. I know Nova would have been incredibly grateful as well. He was such an amazing boy, he was so loving and he had such a big personality. I don't know how i'm ever going to find another reptile that will compare to him.
 
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