Bearded Dragon Network FB Followers?

[YoursTruly]

Are any of you on the Bearded Dragon Network Facebook group? The people there are very helpful and nice, for the most part, but they advocate FOR sand/soil substrate and AGAINST baths. There is even a vet on there who stands by this. That seems absurd to me, especially the sand thing. They claim it's "perfectly safe" even though there are tons of cases of impaction caused by sand. I mean, why would you risk it when you could use something better and cheaper in the long run, like tile or stone? Thoughts?

 

[Gormagon]

I learned long ago that fb is full of false information on many subjects, to many people like to toot their own horn!

 

[YoursTruly]

This is terrifying though, because there are veterenarians on there, too. :?

 

[Gormagon]

This is terrifying though, because there are veterenarians on there, too. :?

IS he actually a vet? Think about it! You can be anything on fb??

 

[YoursTruly]

This is terrifying though, because there are veterenarians on there, too. :?

IS he actually a vet? Think about it! You can be anything on fb??

I'm fairly certain. He has published articles in veteranarian magazines. Believe me, I don't go off of what he says. I just find it infuriating that there is still this much false information going around on beardies.

 

[traildrifterphalanx]

I'm not part of this group or any bearded dragon affiliated group on face book, but it sounds like there may be some form of brainwashing going on...

While the sand debate has been around for how long, I err on the side of better safe than sorry and use tile. The reasoning I get the most about sand is that it's more "natural" for them, and though I know sand can be anywhere, it's not like dragons are from the Sahara desert. :roll: I'm unsure what any other pros are for using sand beyond this as other substrate is just as cheap - price was the only other thing I could consider as their defense.

Particle substrate is messy, dusty, harbors bacteria, gets into their eyes, nose, mouth, ears, and vent whether they want it there or not. It can cause impaction, eye infections, can discolor their scales... I don't see why someone would choose something more difficult to work with aside from liking the natural look of it which is wrong for the pet.

Baths is kind of hit or miss. Some people do it way too often and some don't do it at all. I'm somewhere in-between.
My oldest has been getting baths daily as she drinks from them and is in need of hydration plus loves to soak. My youngest hates them, so he only takes a soak when his shed is starting to peel off so I can soak him with some shed-ease, or if he needs to take a poop. He loves sink poops. As a matter of fact, I take part of this back. He goes in the sink to take a poop about 3-4 times a week. Does this count as a bath?

Regarding the vet, if he is legit, some people just don't like to admit they're wrong and will grab what they can to use in their defense. Think about how many people have been misdiagnosed by doctors because the level of caring just.. wasn't there.

You can likely look up on google a bunch of articles written by "scientists" about how water is terrible for you. You can find an argument against anything logical supposedly written by experts. That's one of the unfortunate things about technology.

 

[Taterbug]

This may sound harsh but I don't intend it too, though I will freely admit my bias. I also find the echo chamber effect pretty fascinating

Being rooted in beliefs, sometimes to the point of being condescending to things that are in disagreement with them, doesn't ultimately benifit the animals in question...

Out of curiosity have you looked around at other groups that espouse these same philosophies? It's been a minute since I browsed that particular group, but I found it the most rational of the beardie groups on FB.

There are two sides of the coin, and many of the groups that promote what those in this thread would consider totally unacceptable would find the tiles 40g tank a torture chamber. I've seen a lot of care and consideration go into habitat design and the overal care and health of the animals. I've seen more informative posts about ntural history, equipment, diet and enrichment on those groups than ever comes up here.

Specifically in response to the examples you give...

Baths aren't needed. If you find your dragon doesn't stress then no harm no foul but even this forum is finally letting go of the myth baths hydrate by any means other than drinking. Many animals find them stressful. Dehydration shouldn't be addressed by an unnatural method - baths are no replacement for proper diet/water provision and humidity. There is a weird dissonance about water, swinging from these dessert animals and need it super dry and no water dish to they need regular baths for health.

Loose substrates aren't the villain of the story. Sorry but again the blame for that falls on care and husbandry. While I don't agree with loose sand since it's not the ecology these animals are from, I continue to use a sand/soil mix for my animals and promote it to interested keepers. That doesn't mean it's for everyone and it isn't for every animal but it's not a boogyman. As for benifits? For me it means I can have a larger and more enriching habitat with less concern over cleaning and dealing with sanitizing the 50-100lb or so of furnishings in each of my cages. I don't have to go on poop hunts. Pepper can hunt/forage through out the day, dig if he wants to, and I can simulate rain which most of my critters come out for to have a drink. Many significantly more sensitive animals cannot be kept in captivity the way dragons are commonly kept. They die from stress.

Fear doesn't make it right to deny animals the ability to express natural behaviors. It's good to be cautious and it good to understand your limits but its not ok to pick a belief and stick with it and not be willing to learn beyond what's on a care sheet. Wild dragons travel about, dig and climb tall trees; but popular care practices would keep them in small, short cages and in a solid floor. Sure captives aren't the same as their wild cousins but they aren't so far removed as to be fragile wilting flowers. With special cases aside, the conditions they receive in or care make or break them.

 

[YoursTruly]

Thanks for the response, TDP. I'm with you on baths. I bathe my girl daily because she has atadenovirus. Going poo can be painful and difficult for her due to inflammation in her intestines and stomach, and the warm water eases it for her. But she rarely drinks from her bath (and the water gets dumped as soon it's soiled), and her head doesn't go under the water. So there's almost no way she can aspirate it.

 

[traildrifterphalanx]

Taterbug, as always, you bring up good points.

Though I personally would not fill my enclosures with sand, I do believe providing them an option to dig and, er, express themselves? can truly be beneficial for the mental health of the animal. It's like getting a dog and throwing a shock collar on it. Dogs bark. While this may be a bad comparison as this is a natural instinct/trait that can be taught to be situational, you know what I'm implying :lol: Beardies have needs!

I actually love having height accentuated in my enclosures to provide that exploration of climbing. While not tall enclosures, I give them multiple levels to enjoy rather than 1 flat level with some elevation. My youngest has figured out how to explore his enclosure like a jungle gym, and unfortunately is quickly outgrowing it.

Loose substrate is not my thing, but I can see it being perceived differently if done correctly. To me, sand gives the image of someone getting their new dragon, grabbing what the pet store offers, and dumping everything together. Sand to me strikes me as "newbie error", but there are ways it can be done correctly and I can understand that.

All in all it may be simply down to "to each their own" as dragon keepers will always differ on even the smallest of husbandry ideas. Water dish? Plants? Substrate? Hammocks? Etc etc. We all want what is best for our dragon, and if an owner can meet their needs and keep them happy and healthy, that's what matters, right?

 

[traildrifterphalanx]

Thanks for the response, TDP. I'm with you on baths. I bathe my girl daily because she has atadenovirus. Going poo can be painful and difficult for her due to inflammation in her intestines and stomach, and the warm water eases it for her. But she rarely drinks from her bath (and the water gets dumped as soon it's soiled), and her head doesn't go under the water. So there's almost no way she can aspirate it.

My sink is basically a toilet. :lol:
I'm glad the baths help Thane! Richter just really does not want to poo in his enclosure if he does not have to. He'll potty dance and start wedging behind stuff when I'm home, clear indication of "gotta poo"

 

[Gormagon]

This may sound harsh but I don't intend it too, though I will freely admit my bias. I also find the echo chamber effect pretty fascinating

Being rooted in beliefs, sometimes to the point of being condescending to things that are in disagreement with them, doesn't ultimately benifit the animals in question...

Out of curiosity have you looked around at other groups that espouse these same philosophies? It's been a minute since I browsed that particular group, but I found it the most rational of the beardie groups on FB.

There are two sides of the coin, and many of the groups that promote what those in this thread would consider totally unacceptable would find the tiles 40g tank a torture chamber. I've seen a lot of care and consideration go into habitat design and the overal care and health of the animals. I've seen more informative posts about ntural history, equipment, diet and enrichment on those groups than ever comes up here.

Specifically in response to the examples you give...

Baths aren't needed. If you find your dragon doesn't stress then no harm no foul but even this forum is finally letting go of the myth baths hydrate by any means other than drinking. Many animals find them stressful. Dehydration shouldn't be addressed by an unnatural method - baths are no replacement for proper diet/water provision and humidity. There is a weird dissonance about water, swinging from these dessert animals and need it super dry and no water dish to they need regular baths for health.

Loose substrates aren't the villain of the story. Sorry but again the blame for that falls on care and husbandry. While I don't agree with loose sand since it's not the ecology these animals are from, I continue to use a sand/soil mix for my animals and promote it to interested keepers. That doesn't mean it's for everyone and it isn't for every animal but it's not a boogyman. As for benifits? For me it means I can have a larger and more enriching habitat with less concern over cleaning and dealing with sanitizing the 50-100lb or so of furnishings in each of my cages. I don't have to go on poop hunts. Pepper can hunt/forage through out the day, dig if he wants to, and I can simulate rain which most of my critters come out for to have a drink. Many significantly more sensitive animals cannot be kept in captivity the way dragons are commonly kept. They die from stress.

Fear doesn't make it right to deny animals the ability to express natural behaviors. It's good to be cautious and it good to understand your limits but its not ok to pick a belief and stick with it and not be willing to learn beyond what's on a care sheet. Wild dragons travel about, dig and climb tall trees; but popular care practices would keep them in small, short cages and in a solid floor. Sure captives aren't the same as their wild cousins but they aren't so far removed as to be fragile wilting flowers. With special cases aside, the conditions they receive in or care make or break them.

This my friend, is the best way I have seen you describe why you do what you do. You have presented it in a way that I can debate it with myself over time. I'm not so old that I can't change but, it would "to me" be hard to do as my dragon seems to be happy the way things are but,"who knows"!

 

[JimmysMom]

I am a part of a few beardie and other reptile groups on fb, one of which is this one the OP refers too. The group itself is run by Pete Hawkins, a writer for the reptile apartment, with extensive knowledge of herps.

The group itself is a great group and yes they promote loose substrate... as in a mix of soil and sand... they try to recreate a natural habitat. And they make people aware that the biggest danger of such would be if someones husbandry is not on point.

Please I ask of you, read the files and much of the admins comments to some post prior to bashing a group...

And just like forums .... there is bad information EVERYWHERE. Its up to you as the owner to make the decision based on research and experience.

 

[Stres]

From all my research over the past 7 months of looking after a bearded dragon iv found that a lot of people are moving to or using a sand/soil substrate mix and many moving to full bioactive setups using live springtail to cleanup the bowel movements etc.

Especially on reptile forums u.k where most advise to use this more natural substrate, and like others have said with the condition that If your husbandry is correct the reptiles should have no issue passing small amounts of substrate if accidently ingested. Here's one of the more recent posts of someone's bio/arid setup.
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums#/topics/1173417?page=1

I think the guys at Arcadia also promote this more natural type of substrate/habitat as it is being found to be more beneficial to the reptiles they even do there own soil products.

Iv even added soil/sand mix into one third of my 5ft viv now that my beardie is around 7/8 months old and at less of a risk to impaction. He seems to like it but I'm still careful not to feed him on that side of the enclosure and don't have free roaming feeder insects, they all get removed after 15 min.

 

[Taterbug]

I worry about the free roaming insects from time to time but even when Pepper sleeps on the ground (which is teeming with super worms) they don't bother him. A few times my anxiety has gotten the better of me and I've moved him, no worms in sight. But he takes a poo or I put food on the ground and they are there in minutes. It's kinda neat. Plus he chows down on whatever roaches are dumb enough to be out in the open - now and then I hear rustling then chomp chomp chomp and turn to see a smug lizard.

Advancing Herpetological Husbandry is by far my favorite FB group. They keep the snark to a minimum and have some absolutely stunning setups and loads of information.

 

[JimmysMom]

Honestly I would love to be able to get my beardies on something more natural then paper towels, slate, shelf liner, but with how unpredictable my climate is in the house I just can't. My gecks get pangea and I have to check it 2x a day to make sure there isnt any mold.... I cant keep water crystals for the dubia cause of the same issue. Yet a multitude of hygometers in my room tell me my humidity is extremely low.