Bearded dragon gaping, lathagic acting different

[Shootex20]

UVB: Exo Terra 10.0 UVB bulb
Basking temp: 90-100F.
Age: Unknown
Sex: Female
Weight: 520 grams
Length: 19"

So let me jump to the point since I've owned her since April 27th, 2017. She was a rescue and I lost my other girl to a unfortunate sickness. Before I got Jaba I sprayed down her cage an cleaned everything soaked everything before I received Jaba and air dries it. Over time Jaba began gaping, I grew a concern it was RI, went to the vet nothing. He said she was extremely healthy and told me not to worry.
Fast forward to June she still continued to gape, this time when she did she would take a huge puff of air and release it, and began rubbing her head no sign of shed, I took her back the vet said he still seen nothing wrong with her. No infections, no RI.
Again this time in august we took her in again, she gapes, he seen the big puff of air she was also taking, her eating kept getting worse at most she only eats 8 super worms, refuses veggies, she will also eat 1 hornworm nothing else, she continues to drink though. The vet prescribed RI medicine, but nothing has changed. He also dewormed her I cleaned her entire cage, and soaked everything in hot water while cleaning her cage (IM VERY ASHAME TO SAY THIS BUT I WAS NOT AWARE) but I found black mold inside her log, it was being shaken out I'm not sure how it started growing in this plastic log so please don't bash me, it nearly killed me when I found it so I threw it out and replaced it with a new one that's real. but yet the gaping consists she continues to eat less at this point I need help, I've cleaned my room and her cage.

On a side note her cage is made out of windshield glass, it's 4 feet long 2 feet wide 18" tall. She gapes, she takes big breathes of air, no clicking in breathes, no excess mucous.

Today she began to shed but she has been rubbing her head before she shedded in June / July. If there is any other info needed let me know I'm posting pictures later when I'm home.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, can you post a video of her breathing ? How often does she take the big deep breath ? It may be connected to the mold in her log, have you discussed that with the vet ?

You say she eats 8 superworms, is that per day ? If so, that is a sufficient amount but it'd best to keep trying to get her to eat other insects. Her weight to length stat is good, she's not underweight at all.

Is your exo terra bulb the long tube ?

 

[Shootex20]

Hi there, can you post a video of her breathing ? How often does she take the big deep breath ? It may be connected to the mold in her log, have you discussed that with the vet ?

You say she eats 8 superworms, is that per day ? If so, that is a sufficient amount but it'd best to keep trying to get her to eat other insects. Her weight to length stat is good, she's not underweight at all.

Is your exo terra bulb the long tube ?

I will try to get a video of the breathing.

She eats 8 per days OR 1 hornworm. I try to stay away from super worms, she refuses to try any crickets. Sometimes butter worms and pheonix + wax worms are on her diet as well.

It's an 18" I just replaced it two days ago.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Definitely post a video of the breathing for us, that would help out.
The superworms are fine, just keep the amount to around 30 a week. If you can get her to
eat other bugs, that would be good also.
How close is the Reptiglo 10 tube bulb to her, is it mounted underneath of the screen or on
top of the screen? Is it mounted directly beside the basking light?
Which medication did the vet prescribe for the respiratory issue?
It is possible her nostrils could be clogged up if her face/head is shedding.

Let us know how she is doing.
Tracie

 

[EllenD]

Big question, what type of thermometer are you using to measure her temps? Giving a "basking spot" temp of 90-100, which is too low and not accurate anyway, is not good enough. She may just be way too hot! You said her tank is entirely glass? So if you're using only a stick-on thermometer and only measuring one, general, ambient temperature inside a glass enclosure, then you really have no idea what her temperature gradient is...You should be measuring her Basking Spot temperature, her Hot Side ambient temperature, and her Cool Side ambient temperature each week, and you absolutely need to go and buy an accurate thermometer that can actually measure exact spots, especially her basking spot. All-glass tanks act as ovens, so it's actually dangerous to not know all 3 major temperature zones exactly, and those round, stick-on gauge thermometers for reptiles as well as any type of stick-on aquarium thermometers are junk. They are often off by over 20 degrees or more, and you can bet that they're all off by at least 10 degrees. Plus, you cannot properly measure her basking spot with one at all. In an all-glass tank (and realize that a windshield is made of thicker safety glass that is going to trap heat even more than normal glass) her temps could easily be cooking her, hence the constant gaping, and you'd never know.

I would start with easy and rule out the temperature issue, either way you absolutely need to go spend $10 on a proper digital probe thermometer at any Petco or PetSmart ASAP, and measure all 3 major temperature zones, and get her temperature gradient inside her glass tank correct. Without a proper basking spot temperature she cannot properly digest her food, especially superworms which have a hard shell. So ease, go to the pet shop and buy a $10 digital thermometer with a probe on a wire, then measure the main basking spot first, the one that is on the "Hot Side" of her tank and that is under bother the basking and UVB lights side-by-side. Make sure you allow the probe to sit for at least 20-30 minutes before you read the temperature, and you must do this before taking each temp. So place the probe on her main basking spot, let it sit for 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature. Then move the probe to the floor of the Hot Side that surrounds her main basking spot, let it sit for 20-30 minutes, then read it, then move the probe to the floor on the Cool Side on the opposite side of her tank, let it sit for 20-30 minutes, then read it.

 

[EllenD]

For proper food digestion, as well as her comfort, your 3 temperatures should fall within the following ranges:

Basking Spot: between 98-103 for an adult; between 105-110 for a baby/juvenile (110 should be the absolute maximum temperature inside her tank).

Hot Side Ambient: between 88-93 max

Cool Side: between 75-80 max (very important it's not over 80, she needs to always have a place to go and cool down, and have this gradual temperature gradient across her tank).

Nighttime temperature should drop naturally, just as it does in the desert, to a temperature much cooler than her daytime tank temps. Most people need no nighttime heat source at all, because as long as her tank doesn't drop below 65 degrees at night she's fine. Also, no nighttime bulbs at all, she wants it pitch black at night so her sleep isn't disturbed. Never use any lights at night, and never use ANY Colored bulbs of any kind at any time of day, only bright white basking bulbs.

You need to take care of her tank temps anyway by buying a proper digital probe thermometer and measuring ALL 3 temperatures, and then adjusting her basking light height and/or wattage accordingly. So since her main outward symptom of a problem is mouth gaping and gulping, getting a proper thermometer and getting her temperature gradient correct may solve the issue. Either way you need to get this done ASAP, so what the hell...Do not raise or lower her basking spot to adjust temps unless you're going to also move the UVB light, as her basking spot must be within the recommended distance from the UVB light you're using, whatever that is listed as on the packaging. So you can raise or lower the basking light height or change the bulb wattage...You didn't list what basking bulb you use, you should only need a single basking bulb that is right alongside the UVB light and both over the basking spot. The basking bulb should only be bright white, no colors. The best to use (and the least expensive as well) are just normal, household halogen indoor flood bulbs, like you buy at Lowes, Walmart, or Home Depot. No reptile specialty basking bulbs needed.

 

[Shootex20]

Oh sorry. I use a exo terra 75 watt, it was originally a 100 watt but it was too hot. Her basking temps (measured with a heat gun are 97)

Here is the video of her gaping: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_67L2nRS_Y&feature=youtu.be
Here are pictures of her + her set up: http://imgur.com/a/3JcXX

 

[Shootex20]

On a side note, this is the UVB and the Heatlight I am currently using.
UVB: http://mrpets.ca/exo-terra-repti-glo-100-uvb-15w-18.html
Heatlight: http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-incandescent-bulbs/11442-501544/exo-terra-intense-basking-spot-lamp.html

Apologies for not clarifying certain things.

 

[AHBD]

I can't see well enough but are her nostrils clogged ? Of course if it's been happening off + on since June it would be a pretty big coincidence or a pretty long time for a nostril to be clogged.

Other than that gaping + slightly more rapid breathing it's not bad, but still just a little something there.

Her uvb is good as long as you change it about every 8 months, but I think she'd benefit from a second low watt heat bulb [ like a 40 ] about a foot away from the 75. Her ambient temps. might be a bit low with just that 75 watt on the screen lid.

 

[Shootex20]

I can't see well enough but are her nostrils clogged ? Of course if it's been happening off + on since June it would be a pretty big coincidence or a pretty long time for a nostril to be clogged.

Other than that gaping + slightly more rapid breathing it's not bad, but still just a little something there.

Her uvb is good as long as you change it about every 8 months, but I think she'd benefit from a second low watt heat bulb [ like a 40 ] about a foot away from the 75. Her ambient temps. might be a bit low with just that 75 watt on the screen lid.

Hi sorry i forgot to reply, nothing in her nose she is now beginning a full body shed.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is your girl, is she still breathing differently?
I hope her shed goes well!
Have you gotten the temperatures all ironed out? The Reptiglo tube bulb is an ok bulb, but
you might consider the Arcadia D3 12% tube instead, for better UVB quality.
How is her activity?

Tracie

 

[Shootex20]

Hello,

How is your girl, is she still breathing differently?
I hope her shed goes well!
Have you gotten the temperatures all ironed out? The Reptiglo tube bulb is an ok bulb, but
you might consider the Arcadia D3 12% tube instead, for better UVB quality.
How is her activity?

Tracie

Hi Tracie, yes unfortunately she is still breathing differently.

Today I was holding her she had 4 consecutive coughs all in a row and I held her to me. When she sits in her basking spot she gets warm basks with her mouth open then when she gets too hot she moves to the corner. She is still very alert just not active.I haven't had a problem with my current UVB brand as of yet, I take her out daily (when it's nice and hot or warm) for 20 min to an hour or more depending on the tempatures just because real UVB is tons better (of course not taking her out when it's cold). At this point I'm at a loss on what's going on.

on a side note there is zero weight change her appetite is still the same as described above. I'm wondering if it's possible she's in brumation, but it's does not explain her gaping to me.

I have 4 other bearded dragons (all rescues I got from terrible homes) all with the same set ups, just in 50 gallon tanks not giant cage and they are not experiencing anything like this. And I've had them all for a long time with vet check ups every 3 ish months because one is sick with severe mouth rot (which has nearly cleared up!)

At this point due to the coughing (I wish I got it on record) I am beginning to think it may be URI but like I said I'm unsure.

On a side note I'm not trying to come off like a know it all because it probably sounds like that! I'm just giving you full description detail, tommorow I'm gonna check her temps with the digital and heat gun again and I'll post them here. Currently they're asleep, but when I checked earlier is was 99F. It's hard messing with her tempatures because my outside changes constantly living in Canada is difficult for that one!

 

[EllenD]

At this point I would get her to an experienced reptile vet ASAP for cultures (and sensitivity) to rule out an upper respiratory infection, and to properly diagnose the exact bug causing the upper respiratory infection and to get the proper medications prescribed THE FIRST TIME! Lately there's been a lot of very questionable vet care we're seeing, a ton of prescribing harsh medications without running a single test, prescribing a broad-spectrum antibiotic instead of doing a culture and sensitivity to determine the bug causing the infection and determining the proper meds to treat that bug, and as a result it seems that most sick beardies end up taking at least 2-3 different meds, often it's actually more than 2-3, because they just keep trying different meds without actually knowing what bug they're treating and what medication will clear it. We actually have seen a lot of vets prescribing antibiotics for fungal infections, which not only don't treat the fungal infection but make it much worse...It's bad.

Beardies often get upper respiratory infections that are caused by both a bacteria AND a fungus, and they often need both the proper antibiotic and antifungal meds. But what often happens is the vet does no cultures and just listens to the beardie breathing, diagnoses an URI, and prescribes a broad-spectrum antibiotic, usually Baytril. Then the beardie doesn't get better, so they go to a different broad-spectrum antibiotic, but yet again no antifungal because they have no idea one is needed. You may be dealing with something like Aspergillus, which can be very serious. Based on her symptoms I'd almost say that she definitely has an URI and needs a culture and the proper medications. We've been seeing a lot of success treating with nebulizing the meds, either in addition to or instead of oral dosing. People are doing nebulizer treatments of F10SC disinfectant diluted with sterile saline and getting excellent and very quick results! If you do a search here for "nebulizer treatments" you'll see the research and results. I've had excellent results nebulizing Tylosin in both parrots and beardies, as well as the F10SC.

 

[Shootex20]

At this point I would get her to an experienced reptile vet ASAP for cultures (and sensitivity) to rule out an upper respiratory infection, and to properly diagnose the exact bug causing the upper respiratory infection and to get the proper medications prescribed THE FIRST TIME! Lately there's been a lot of very questionable vet care we're seeing, a ton of prescribing harsh medications without running a single test, prescribing a broad-spectrum antibiotic instead of doing a culture and sensitivity to determine the bug causing the infection and determining the proper meds to treat that bug, and as a result it seems that most sick beardies end up taking at least 2-3 different meds, often it's actually more than 2-3, because they just keep trying different meds without actually knowing what bug they're treating and what medication will clear it. We actually have seen a lot of vets prescribing antibiotics for fungal infections, which not only don't treat the fungal infection but make it much worse...It's bad.

Beardies often get upper respiratory infections that are caused by both a bacteria AND a fungus, and they often need both the proper antibiotic and antifungal meds. But what often happens is the vet does no cultures and just listens to the beardie breathing, diagnoses an URI, and prescribes a broad-spectrum antibiotic, usually Baytril. Then the beardie doesn't get better, so they go to a different broad-spectrum antibiotic, but yet again no antifungal because they have no idea one is needed. You may be dealing with something like Aspergillus, which can be very serious. Based on her symptoms I'd almost say that she definitely has an URI and needs a culture and the proper medications. We've been seeing a lot of success treating with nebulizing the meds, either in addition to or instead of oral dosing. People are doing nebulizer treatments of F10SC disinfectant diluted with sterile saline and getting excellent and very quick results! If you do a search here for "nebulizer treatments" you'll see the research and results. I've had excellent results nebulizing Tylosin in both parrots and beardies, as well as the F10SC.

I never heard of this until now, I've been looking everywhere to find something related to her symptoms and you may have just broke the mystery.

I have a question, is it possible the mold in her plastic log make her sick? And gave her aspergillus? As stated above I was highly unaware she had any black mold in her log until I was doing a deep cage clean a few weeks ago. It destroyed me finding that mold so I took out her log and put her hut as her basking area.

I'm going back to my vet he is suppose to be the best as a lot of reptile rescues go to him, he is the only reptile specialist here. I'm afraid of going to another as the last vet I went to I don't think knew what he was doing and the other ones are 2-3 hours away sadly.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is your dragon doing today?
I agree, Aspergillus is the most commonly found bacteria in the mouth. It is an opportunistic type of bacteria, as is Klebsiella. They are responsible for causing lung problems, especially pneumonia. If
it's treated early, then the respiratory issues should get knocked out.
You could have the vet do an x-ray to view the lungs & they could also do a mouth swab to see if any bacteria is found.
It is a possibility that mold in her tank could have contributed to her respiratory problems she seems
to be having. Do you know what the humidity in her tank is? Things happen unfortunately, but if you can try to get her to a vet I think you can get her on the right track. Nebulizing is a terrific treatment & much better than the traditional oral only medication treatments.
I would focus on keeping her a little warmer overnight, around 80 or so, to help boost her system if you aren't already do that!
You definitely don't come across as a know it all in any way, shape or form. Quite the contrary, you are very sweet & are very concerned about your girl. I am sure living in Canada is very challenging with the ever changing weather.

Let us know how she is doing.
Tracie