Baby with poor appetite, worrisome behaviors...

[PhoenixtheDragon]

I got my very first bearded dragon baby December 17, 2013 and fell totally in love with her (him?)...
I am very frustrated with all of the conflicting information I get regarding husbandry and it is driving me crazy to the point of not sleeping because I am so worried and now I'm seeing some alarming behaviors that I describe near the end...

According to this website, the pet store steered me all wrong (although it is a small family owned pet store that specializes in reptiles and fish). Since they specialized I figured they would be telling me the proper information...

First off, they sold her to me at 2 WEEKS old which seemed super young to me. I asked if that was safe because that seemed too young and they reassured me that it was fine. They told me to handle her as much as possible without telling me to give her an adjustment period. After some googling I learned that this was incorrect but whats done is done. The pet store also babysits so I had them baby sit while I had to go away for Christmas because I didn't really trust my family to take proper care.

So my current set up is (all brand new as of Dec 17):
Phoenix is 5 weeks old, measures at 5.75 inches.
- 36x18x19 reptile vivarium (after doing some research I'm considering partitioning it off to 24 inches long until she gets bigger... is this a good idea?)
- UVB turns on at 930ish AM and turns off at 10ish pm. I have a timer coming.
- 18" ReptiGlo 10.0 t8 tube. I have the Reptisun on order from Amazon (arriving Jan 8 ) to be safe but I am still using the ReptiGlo because:
- On the top of the basking spot, she is 12" away from the UVB and it is through the mesh screen top which I have been reassured that the UVB can get through since there is no plastic/glass. I am planning to mount the UVB inside tomorrow. Do I have to worry about it being too intense if its on the inside? I am not sure how far away she'd be then, but I could move the basking log.
- 150 watt red light reptile heat lamp... which I was told to leave on all the time. I have been leaving it on because she seems to like staying there for a while and then moving over later in the night.
- Repticarpet substrate. No background so far, but I have taped paper up to the sides and one is facing the wall so only one side is open to her.
- She has a cave and a log to climb on the cool side.
- Temperatures: Basking 100 F on the highest spot. the next spot down is 96-99 F
Warm side ambient is 85-95 depending where exactly I take it
Cool side 78
- Temperatures taken with Reptitemp digital infared thermometer, 2" approx above from place I am measuring
- She does not touch any of the bok choy, butternut squash, carrots, apples or mangos I set out for her (chopped very tiny, as small or smaller than the crickets I feed her)... although the pet store said she ate her veggies.
- She eats crickets (no bigger than space between eyes) dusted in Rep-Cal Calcium with Vit D3 * 6 days on one feeding , dusted in Rep-Cal Herptivite with Beta Carotine * 5 days on one feeding. I offer as much as she will eat in 10-15 mins, 2-3 times per day. Since we got back from out of town I have started feeding her small phoenix worms for one of the feedings. Prior to Jan 2, she would eat 10-15 bugs in total per day. Jan 2 and on I am lucky if she eats 4-5 phoenix worms. I feed her in a separate container to catch remaining bugs easier and because her vivarium is so large. She will eat one or two and the shuts her eyes or glass dances on the walls.
- She poops daily (dark brown with white urates and small amount of liquid surrounding), no evidence of struggling
- Daily warm baths for 10-15 mins. Once in a while she drinks, not every time. (Should I bathe her more?)
- I've misted her a couple times, as directed by the pet store and some websites, but she doesn't seem to like it. Runs away sometimes. So I haven't really done this since Dec 31. I won't anymore unless I am advised otherwise.
- I keep a very shallow water dish for her
- Last shed around Dec 28 with no issues

Alarming Behaviors:

Prior to our Christmas "vacation" visiting in-laws, there was no alarming behavior to note, except maybe that she closes her eyes when she basks. We also have two very playful and curious (read: bratty) cats who like to watch her but she has never really seemed that upset by it. The first two nights she slept in her hide, but since then I haven't seen her in it.She seemed to like being held and would fall asleep sitting on us. We came back Dec 29 and she was eating/behaving normal until Jan 2. Jan 2 she started having decreased appetite and glass surfing almost non-stop, except to take a break to bask for a few minutes or when I bathed/fed her. She is much more flighty - typically she would be calm when we picked her up, now she tries to run most times, jumps out of our hands. I noticed she also has been doing weird Evel Knievel jumps off her basking spot like she's trying to leap out of her viv through the glass or onto the top mesh or something. I've seen her rub her face twice - once on the carpet and once on her log. She also has some faint stress marks on her belly that I've just noticed today. And now instead of sleeping on her cool side log like she used to, she sleeps standing facing the corner. I was super stressed about the not eating thing but then decided she was probably getting ready to shed again and so tried not to worry too much.

But then, tonight I walked by around midnight, she seemed to be basking on top of her log, and I noticed her HEAD TWITCHED for about 3 seconds and then stopped. I've seen this twice within about 15 mins. It was definitely not bobbing (do they even do that this young?). It for sure was involuntary muscle movements.

EDIT: When she basks, she typically holds herself up, sitting upright like a cat or dog would, stretching her head up facing the ceiling.

She does not seem lethargic (especially with all that glass surfing). I do not notice any discharge from her nostrils or mouth. She doesn't seem to be swollen or have bumps anywhere.

Based on my own research there are three possible causes
1) MBD; 2) Vitamin B1 deficiency (her multivite has B1); 3) neurological damage from her jumping into the glass.
How long do MBD and Vitamin deficiencies take to show signs? Would jumping from her basking log cause her neurological damage? Am I just paranoid?

Any insight or advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Sauzo]

Well first off, definitely get a ReptiSun 10.0 or Arcadia 12% UVB or a MVB(do the research on those first if not familiar with them). Regardless of what the petshop people told you, screen mesh WILL filter out UVB, so you want it inside the cage. You want the closest point to be about 6-8 inches from the dragons basking spot.

As for the heat light, ditch the red light. They need a white light around 5-6k kelvin but a household bulb, reptile basking bulb, halogen bulb will work. You want a white light cause it will dilate the dragons pupils to protect them from the UVB when they bask. This could be why your dragon is closing its eyes when it basks. At night unless the room your dragon is in gets colder than 65 degrees, you don't want any heat or any form of light(no blacklights, moonlights, redlights or any other gimmick they try and sell you). Dragons need to cool down when they sleep so their metabolism can slow down. This is needed for health. If your house does get colder than 65 degrees, then you can use a small Ceramic heat bulb aka CHE to get that night time temp up to around 70-75 degrees.

Personally being so young, I would ditch the repticarpet and just use paper towels till the dragon gets older, then switch to tiles. Babies poop all over all the time and repticarpet will just be a breeding ground for bacteria. Paper towels are easy to clean, cheap and readily available.

You don't need a background. I used white paper towels taped on the back and sides for Harley when she was 6 weeks old till she got used to me, the house and her cage.

You don't need a hide either. You want a social pet, not a hider who will become antisocial. Just give the dragon a good log to climb/sit on and a nice basking item like the log or a flat rock or slate tiles. Rocks and tiles work great as they will soak up heat and provide a natural belly heat as well as a top heat. just make sure you monitor the temp of the rock so it doesn't get too hot. !00 degrees basking temp is too low for a baby. They need around 110-115 degrees at the hottest spot. The rest of temps you got a good though.

Most babies and especially a 2 week old baby wont eat greens. They will power down as much protein as they can get to try and grow as fast as possible to become less of a prey item. Keep offering greens though but don't expect much to be eaten. Here is a site for a list of stuff http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html.

Rep-Cal is good vitamins. I would do calcium 5x a week and then Rep-Cal Herptivite 2x week. Like 3 days calcium, 1 day Heprtivite, 2 days calcium, 1 day Herptivite. The feeding is fine and if you aren't squeamish of roaches, maybe try very small dubia roaches. They are much better than crickets and definitely less of a hassle. Feeding in separate cages is a mixed bag. I disagree to do it. I feed Harley in her cage and she was in a 4ft cage at 6 weeks old and 6 inches long. Crickets are a pain but dubias are easy so you might have to just partition off part of the cage till your dragon gets bigger or just herd the crickets towards your dragon.

Baths are fine daily or you can do every other day. Do not mist the cage. It will only create high humidity which can lead to URI. Same with a water dish. Not needed and pretty much is just a breeding ground for bacteria.

As for the head twitching, are you sure your dragon was asleep? With a red light shining down on him/her, they could have been awake since they need darkness to really sleep. Maybe your dragon was dreaming. If your dragon is getting the doses of vitamin you posted, it shouldn't be MBD although the UVB setup is pretty weak. D3 is produced by the dragons body through UVB absorption. Some studies were done and it is questionable whether ingested D3 is even absorbed into the body as useable so you really need to get that UVB setup right. Lack of D3 means no matter how much calcium you give, the dragon will not be able to utilize it since the D3 is what allows the dragon to absorb the calcium. I would watch her/his toes. If your dragon walks/runs with their toes pointing up and not flatfooted, that can be an early sign of deficiency.

As for a neurological disorder, its possible I guess but I wouldn't think it would be from them jumping around the cage. If anything, it would be probably be from birth. Regardless, dont have the logs set up feet off the cage where they can hurt from jumping. Babies are very active and love to run around. Harley used to sprint from one side of her 4ft cage to the other and everywhere inbetween as a baby. Now as an adult, she is a lazy fat slug who really only shows any form of speed when its dubia chasing time or she plays on the bed. I really wouldn't worry about the head twitch as long as it doesn't become more regular and she/he doesn't develop other weird problems. Just get that UVB set up right. 6-8 inches from the basking spot and nothing between the bulb and basking spot.

Oh and one other thing. Babies shrivel up like prunes very fast under the 110-115 degree heat which they need to digest all that food fast so you will defintaely want to soak them at least every 3 days for around 20-30 mins in baby warm water. Preferablt every other day if they aren't eating greens or aren't eating juicy bugs. You can also use an eyedropper and just squeeze out a drop and touch it to the babies nose(be sure not to drop it on her nostrils). Harley used to hate baths as a baby so I would do that to help hydrate her. As an adult now though, she loves baths and its more work getting her out now than it was getting her in as a baby

 

[PhoenixtheDragon]

Ok, so I'll work on the UVB today. Do I need a specific fixture for it? Can I use the one I already have if I can figure out how to mount it? Its a hood shaped like this one, but not the same brand.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003UV8T90/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B003UV8T90&linkCode=as2&tag=bdlife-20

Any suggestions for the household bulb for wattage/brands? I plan to raise the basking spot a couple inches to increase the temperature if I need to. If I get a 150 watt white bulb will it heat the same as the red bulb? I have a shorter log too that I can swap if it gets too hot... Is it okay if she can get 8 inches away from the uvb if its not near the basking lamp (this would be a second cool side climbing spot).

I haven't seen her inside the cave since the second night. She seems to like to climb on top of it though.

I haven't noticed any other twitches or deformed toes, so I guess that's good. She was awake I think when she twitched... I'll be on the look out.

Should I be worried about her appetite, glass surfing and stress marks or should I chalk that up to shedding since she changed from light greenish to golden brown since her last shed? (she got a bit darker. I'm not very good at describing colours)

What is this dubia roach people speak of? It also seems like some people are hush-hush about having them?
Also collard greens, swiss chard, escarole... The only suitable green I can find is bok choy. Where do people find the others?

 

[Tonja]

If you are ordering or getting a reptisun 10.0 you will need a T8 fixture <walmart under the counter style for under 13.00> so the ballast for the light is correct. I have mine mounted inside on the back wall of the tanks and used heavy duty Velcro and never had a problem with them falling. You can also use command hooks for mounting them. I use a 75 watt clear household bulb for the basking and heat lamp in both 40 gallon breeder tanks and it holds a good 110 degree temp for the baby and good 100 degrees for my adult female. Give calcium 5 times a week one feeding per day and a multivitamin 2 times a week one feeding per day. I use repti-cal with d3 for calcium and herptivite multivitamins. To dust my live prey I have an empty parmesan cheese container..I put a piece of screen in the lid to cover just the shaker holes and put the lid back on the bottle. the other side which is larger is where I add the calcium and crickets/live prey. Then I turn it on its side and roll it to lightly coat the feeders. then open up the shaker side of the top and shake out the excess calcium, close it and open the pour side and dump out the crickets. It easy and you aren't wasting baggies..and it can be washed.

 

[Tonja]

As for dubia, they are a type of tropical roach that have a higher ratio of protein as opposed to crickets and make an excellent staple feeder. They don't climb, don't make noise and don't stink like crickets can, Dubia are easy to establish and breed when you have the temps and foods right for them.

While I taking about feeders here are some dos and don'ts. I never feed waxworms as a staple they are to fatty and fed in excess can lead to fatty liver disease and an overweight dragon. They do however, get one or two a month as a treat. Superworms are a good feeder but, babies should not be fed them till they are about 16 inches long due to a kink in their intestines. I have fed micro superworms with success but many say not to. I never feed mealworms as the chitin shell on them is to hard and hard for them to digest. Silkworms are an excellent feeder also and make an enzyme called serapetase which is excellent for beardies. Soft worms like butterworms and hornworms are also good feeders but can be fatty also so those should not be fed in excess in my opinion. Also never ever feed bugs from outside. These can contain heavy loads of parasites which your beardie will ingest and start a cycle of parasites a vet will need to give meds for. Outside bugs may also have ingested pesticides which can be harmful to your baby. Not to mention some can be deadly and kill your beardie like the lightning bug. Hope this helps some.

 

[Sauzo]

The fixture I personally use are http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-18-in...uorescent%2Bfixture?Ntx=mode+matchall&NCNI-5#. I run 2 of em in my 4ft cage. 1 has a reptisun 10.0 and the other is a daylight tube. I also run a 100 watt Mega Ray MVB and a 150 watt basking light on a lamp dimmer so I can adjust the heat as needed. The lamp dimmer is also from Home Depot http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lutron-C...-In-Lamp-Dimmer-Black-TT-300NLH-BL/100478442#. That's not the exact one but looks close. For some reason the don't list the one on website but its in the store.

As for the wattage, it really depends on the ambient temp and how far the light is from the basking site and basking material. I use a 150 watt reptile basking light cause I was by the petshop when I remembered it but you can use halogens or just a spotlight. You don't want any of the new energy efficient bulbs though as those don't generate heat. Harleys basking spot is a slab of polished bluestone and the room is around 75 degrees. I turn the spotlight about halfway up to achieve a basking spot of 105-107 degrees. My advice would be to get one of those dimmers. They are like $3 and then you can use a bigger bulb like a 150 watt and then just adjust it to get the perfect temp. Just make sure the dimmer is rated for the wattage. Best idea is get a 300 watt rated one.

As for the UVB fixture, the one I linked is what I use. I just mounted them inside the cage with 3M Command Hooks which you can buy at Home Depot as well.http://www.homedepot.com/p/Command-White-3-lb-3-in-Wire-Hooks-2-Pack-17068ES/100389025#. Those are the exact ones I used with the fixture as the ends fit right into the mounting holes on the fixture perfect.

You can google dubia roaches or look in the feeder section here. Most people actually use them as they are easy and great feeders. Although they cant be imported into Florida. Anyways, there is too much info to really go into details so just google it or check on the feeders section here.

As for stuff like collard greens, escarole, dandelion greens, etc, check local farmer markets or your local natural or whole foods retailer. In my area I can find it all at the local PCC.

 

[PhoenixtheDragon]

Thanks for the responses, they are helpful. I am experienced at raising cats, but this is my first experience with reptiles. I am on my way out soon to change the lighting.

I haven't noticed any more of the twitching yet today. She's been glass-surfing all morning pretty much, save for around 30 mins of basking. Stress marks are a bit darker today.

She is still not eating like she used to. Today so far she's had one phoenix worm and 3 tiny pieces of butternut squash that I hand fed her. It's day 4 of her poor appetite.

How long until I should be taking more action about her poor appetite? Is she just stressed out, or is it something more?

 

[Sauzo]

Did you just get her? If so its probably relocation stress. It can take anywhere from a couple hours to a couple weeks before they calm down. Just keep offering her food. Also if temps aren't right and UVB isn't right, that can put them off on food as well, especially really young babies. Babies are xtra work as they need pretty near perfect conditions to really thrive. But it is well worth it. I raised Harley from a little 6 inch 6 week old and now she is a 16 inch 9 month old slug of love :lol: She likes to sit next to me on the couch on top of the couch back on movie nights and stretch out and watch a movie while falling asleep haha.

 

[PhoenixtheDragon]

We got her on the 17th, had to go out of town so boarded her at the pet store I got her from 24th-29th, so she's been back with us for a week. She ate like a little piggy her first couple days back, and seemed to act like she did before we left. Then suddenly (on the 2nd), no appetite and all this glass surfing and stress marks. Which is what worries me, because why would she be fine and later get stressed out? Unless that is common? As far as I can tell nothing else has changed, except I started introducing phoenix worms on the 30th...

Hopefully she'll return to being an eating machine once I get the light and temps straightened out...

 

[Sauzo]

Yea, just get the UVB/heat issues straightened out and let her readjust. I mean she went from her original home to you, then from you to the pet shop, then from the pet shop back to you all in a couple weeks. I imagine that would upset any pet. Anyways, just offer her crickets, phoenix worms, greens and dubias if you do those and as long as the environment is good, she should come around. Cover the sides and back of the cage and as for if that's normal, well maybe the mass moves in such a short time has upset her. I know Harley is really shy and it took her almost a week before she started eating good and that was only 1 move from the breeder to me.

 

[PhoenixtheDragon]

Well she seems to be going back into piggy mode, which is good.

She had a big poop, but it had some light orangey brown colored stool along with the normal color and a tiny bit of yellow urates along with a large amount of white urate. Is the orange anything to worry about? Could it be the squash?

I put paper up on the inside of three sides, and I'm certain the glass dancing is from seeing her reflection because now she only does it on the front of the vivarium.

I got a new white lamp from the pet store (couldn't find anything my SO, an electrician :roll: , deemed suitable at Home Depot), basking temps 106-108 right now. I've just raised the log again so hopefully it'll increase a couple degrees. She can bask 7-8 inches from the UV mounted inside now. She seems more active now, not just glass dancing. A little more skittish though. She was basking, my cat walked by and startled her and she leaped off the log to go hide at the back of the vivarium. She seems to be back to exploring. I've also switched to paper towel, just to be safe.

Tonja: I love that Parmesan cheese container idea. Handling crickets is not my forte but luckily I have two cats that appreciate the strays.

Sauzo: Thanks for the Home Depot recommendations, super helpful!

 

[Sauzo]

NP. The little bit of orange urate can be squash or it can be a little bit of over vitamin. Same with the yellow but I wouldn't worry about it. Generally what vitamins their bodies don't use they will pass in urate. As long as the urate is solid and moist, not dry and chalky, you are good. And yea being alert is definitely a good sign for your dragon. Means he/she is feeling good and aware of their surroundings. Harley used to freak out when I would take my boa out and sling it over my shoulder and walk around cleaning the boa's cage or just letting the boa crawl around the couch :lol: Now she doesn't seem to care too much about it but she still makes sure to watch it haha.