Baby shaking?

[Soulsplosion]

I have a 3 month old baby who I've had for several weeks who's been fine. I was wondering if he was slightly slower lately (not lethargic or anything just not running marathons as often). Tonight he didn't move to find a place to sleep and was just where he was, and when I picked him up he was shivering a Lot, though he is now cozy and has stopped.

His UV is a new reptisun 10.0 T8, his basking spot is 100 degrees at most with plenty of middle & cooler spots, & he eats kale, collard greens and plenty of crickets.The only off thing I can think of is maybe calcium; he still gets lots of supplements but maybe I could be giving him more. Could he be getting MBD that fast even with some calcium?

 

[MrSpectrum]

The first thing I notice is that you mention kale first. Does that mean you're using it as a staple?
While some sources say kale is fine for BDs; others note that kale is high in oxalates, and as such, a calcium binder, so should only be fed occasionally.
Kale as a Staple

Is the distance from basking spot to the T8 UVB correct/within range?
If the lighting is correct, it's not likely he'd be developing MBD.

Are crickets the sole insect feeder?

 

[Soulsplosion]

this is his setup:

which is in the range stated on the boxes

He eats mainly kale but it's a mix with collard or dandelion greens (whichever we have) and sometimes with peas/carrots

His only protein is crickets for now bc he's still tiny

THANK!

 

[CooperDragon]

The setup looks pretty good. Kale is fine when mixed with other greens and veges. I'm guessing he's more interested in the bugs anyway at this point which is common. How are you measuring the surface temps in the tank? What are the temps overnight?

 

[Soulsplosion]

I measure the temp with a lil thermostat that I move around to test each spot. At night under the lamp it's around 73 and my house as a whole doesn't go under 68

 

[KarrieRee]

If that lil thermostat is a dial it is not accurate - you need to get a digital probe and / or a infrared heat gun- I recommend both--- you need actual basking temps of 105-110 for a baby--- probes can be bought at Pet Smart or Petco for around $5 and a infrared heat gun at your local home improvement store it does not haft to be expensive ---
Karrie

 

[ComicBookMama]

You said that he's on crickets for now because he's tiny... if he's tiny, he's the perfect size for BSFL / Phoenix Worms! They're a super feeder, high naturally in calcium with no hard exoskeleton. Might be worth giving a try!

 

[kingofnobbys]

I have a 3 month old baby who I've had for several weeks who's been fine. I was wondering if he was slightly slower lately (not lethargic or anything just not running marathons as often). Tonight he didn't move to find a place to sleep and was just where he was, and when I picked him up he was shivering a Lot, though he is now cozy and has stopped.

Lizards don't shake when too cold , they don't create body heat internally. This is only something done by mammals.

If he's shaking, it's a symptom of some kind of vitamin deficiency or a neurological problem ( from either lack of UVA , poor diet , or a desease effecting his nervous system).

Looking at your images of the light set up, it's very likely he's not received sufficient UVA , tube is ontop a very fine mesh lid.

Move the hood & and tube UNDER the mesh, this will result in an instant doubling of the UVA & UVB he'll receive.

His UV is a new reptisun 10.0 T8
a 10% T8 tube mounted ontop a mesh lid is COMPLETELY INADEQUATE , the dragon needs to be able to bask inside 4 inches from this , and if no mesh under it , inside 6-8 inches of the tube.

aim for UVB about 190 microW / sq.cm at basking spot, 80 microW / sq.cm on warm zone floor.

Can you return the T8 tube and reflector hood and exchange for a T5Ho of at least 10% UVB rating ?
...a T5ho 12% UVB will be even better
If you insist on leaving the uv tube and hood ontop the mesh lid, then I STRONGLY suggest a T5ho 14%UVB tube in your case to ensure adequate UVA and UVB exposure at the basking spot and elsewhere in the warm zone.

, his basking spot is 100 degrees at most with plenty of middle & cooler spots, & he eats kale, collard greens and plenty of crickets.The only off thing I can think of is maybe calcium; he gets supplements but I was wondering if he wasn't getting enough lately so I started giving him more, and perhaps overdid and overdosed it, but I don't see that being a symptom of calcium overdose anywhere. Could he be getting MBD that fast even with some calcium?

Early stages of MBD , strong likelihood given inadequate levels of UVB
http://www.anapsid.org/mbd.html
, he'll not be able to metabolise the dietary calcium properly ==> poor bone development and perhaps even hypercalcemia :
http://www.anapsid.org/hypercal.html

If you are overdosing on calcium the urates will have a tan - yellow tinge = excess Ca will be precipitates as calcium oxalate crystals in the urates.If your beardie’s urates are yellow, this can be due to too much calcium in the diet.
I recommend doing a little reading on how much calcium to give your beardie and adjusting from there.
https://reptile.guide/dusted-calcium-bearded-dragons/

 

[kingofnobbys]

this is his setup:

which is in the range stated on the boxes
<<< sorry but the information on the boxes is very misleading and has caused many noobs to set up incorrectly ( you aren't the first to fall into this trap and wont be the last , and this is usually reinforced by poor advise given by know nothing shop staff ).

Zoo Med needs to up their game and start specifying ACTUAL microW UVB and microW UVA at a set of distances in a table form or as a graph and recommends a UVA and UVB flux at the baskings spot for bearded dragons.
The info here : https://zoomed.com/wp-content/uploads/Choosing-Correct-UVB-Lamp-2018-07.pdf
is very misleading and WAY TOO VAGUE to be useful , and in places it's incorrect wrt UV levels needed.

He eats mainly kale but it's a mix with collard or dandelion greens (whichever we have) and sometimes with peas/carrots

His only protein is crickets for now bc he's still tiny

THANK!

You mention he's only 3 months old
so diet needs to be nearly entirely live insects
ie
BSFL,
blowfly gents,
small (1") or medium (1.5-2") sickworms,
1/3 size gutloaded calcium dusted crickets (or equivalent length roaches or locusts) ,

two live feeds per day ( three if you manage it).

Add salad after he's had his bugs. He wont get enough amino acids and fats and protein from the salad.
Gutload the crickets with the same greens you'd like him to eat, give the crickets raw fresh carrot chunks as a source of hydration.
I feed my crickets carrot chunks , buk choi whites and repcal adult bearded dragon pellets ( dry , they love them ), and gut load with buk choi greens.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, if you mount the uvb under the screen with wire it will provide much better uvb. Here's a pic of how I did it in my clown agamas tank .

https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/30028/full

And according to the USDA , kale is very low in oxalates and can be fed as a staple. It's spinach + swiss chard that should be avoided but not kale.

https://www.healwithfood.org/articles/oxalates-kale-spinach.php

 

[MrSpectrum]

And according to the USDA , kale is very low in oxalates and can be fed as a staple. It's spinach + swiss chard that should be avoided but not kale.

https://www.healwithfood.org/articles/oxalates-kale-spinach.php

I'd just note that the claim on the above link is immediately preceded by the disclaimer:

Before delving into the exact values, it is important to note that the oxalic acid content of a specific vegetable can vary significantly depending on several factors. For example, the type of soil in which the vegetable was grown as well as the age of the vegetable when it was harvested can have a great impact on the oxalate content of that food. Furthermore, oxalate concentrations of vegetables such as kale and spinach have been shown to vary significantly depending on the season.

I don't know about everyone else, but I have no way of knowing/determining about the kale at my local grocery (whose sources vary depending on many factors inherent in the grocery/produce business), what type of soil it was grown in, how old it was when harvested, seasonality, or the other factors that affect levels of oxalates. It makes me wonder what the USDA actually said, and how they couched it.

A lot of articles cite:

According to nutrient data provided by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), 100-gram serving of kale (Brassica oleracea L. var. acephala) contains only 20 milligrams of oxalates.

Yet none of them I've read/seen provide a link to the USDA where this alleged data can be reviewed or evaluated. Does anyone have one? I spent the better part of an hour searching the USDA site and couldn't find anything relating to the amount(s) of oxalates in kale. It might (or might not) clear up some confusion to be able to read/see this source material.

Does the figure apply to fresh raw kale, chopped, steamed, otherwise cooked/prepared? Because all of those variables also affect the amount of oxalates. These things might be determined if a direct link were provided, and as with the link cited above, there may also be disclaimers/qualifiers wherever the USDA published the data.

USDA also has a long history of errors, gaffs, politics, and other foibles (e.g. the food pyramid--don't get me started!). I'd be the first to admit it'd be nice if they were an unimpeachable source/reference, but unfortunately, that's not their track record.

With all the variables surrounding some vegetables and oxalates (kale is not the only one) I'd still rather play safe than sorry. As I originally stated, sources still differ; as a part of a BD's diet, fine, but I won't--and wouldn't--take the chance of using it as a staple. YMMV. There are so many safe(r) options.

 

[AHBD]

Well using that logic you'd have to scrutinize all the other greens that are used as staples such as mustard, collard , turnip. Kale is fine, I myself + many other owners have been feeding it for years. It was just people passing on misinformation year after year that got to be taken as truth.

Here's another source saying kale is fine :

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/should-we-eat-greens-high-oxalic-acid-guylaine-lacerte

 

[Claudiusx]

Hi there,

How is your baby doing today? I do agree with the other posters, if you could mount your uvb bulb under the screen, it should help.

Remember, proper uvb is necessary for the absorption of calcium. So even if you are dusting with a lot of calcium, if the uvb exposure isnt proper, it wont be getting absorbed properly.

How do the urates look? If they are soft and white that's great. If they are hard and chalky or discolored, it could be a sign that you are giving too much supplements.

What does his daily diet look like, you mentioned tons of crickets but could you put a number on that so we get an idea?

Hope hes doing good today

Please keep us updated.

-Brandon

 

[MrSpectrum]

Well using that logic you'd have to scrutinize all the other greens that are used as staples

What makes you think I haven't? The greens/vegetables we're using as staples don't have conflicting information--same with the plants in the enclosure. If they did, I'd play it safe there too.

Here's another source saying kale is fine :

That's just another person repeating the same alleged USDA figure as the other link--unsupported by the actual USDA link. How is that different from "people passing on misinformation year after year that got to be taken as truth"?

All I've said is that from what I've read, there is some disagreement about using kale as a staple, and I'm not willing to risk it. If you don't agree with--or like--my opinion, then ignore/disregard it.

 

[Claudiusx]

Let's not get too side tracked on whether or not kale is or isnt a good green to feed. The goal here is to help the op and his/her dragon. Let's leave it at that. Enough about kale has been said at this point.

I do think it's a valid discussion worth having, but in it's own thread.

-Brandon