Baby dragon basking, but not at the "right spot"?

[cliffhanger2]

Hi everyone,

I just got a bearded dragon about 2 weeks ago. It's about 2 1/2 months old and about 7" long overall.

Tank information: 4' wide by 2' tall by 18" deep
UVB source: Exo Terra Sunray, 70W
Basking lamps: Exo Terra intense basking spot 150W plus Zoo Med Repti halogen 75W
Cool side lamps: Exo Terra Repti vision 13W + 26W

Hot side ambient temperature: 38 degrees Celsius measured with digital probe thermometer
Cool side ambient temperature: 31 degrees Celsius measured with digital probe thermometer

Yes there is a total of five lamps burning. All lamps are placed above the top mesh of the terrarium.

That's the hot side configuration. The intended basking spot is the square hay net, which is directly underneath the Sunray bulb. A third digital probe measures 42 degrees Celsius there (see the black wire).

My concern is that my dragon - whom I have named Cliffhanger because it likes sleeping on the side wall - never seems to be basking in that spot. It has a few other spots, one of which is underneath that net, on top of the buffalo skull where it is right now. My infrared thermometer measures about 37 degrees Celsius there.

Other spots include that thin branch partially obscuring it. It's 35 Celsius where it likes to be. Or on that split branch to the left, again about 35 Celsius where it likes to be. Occasionally it likes hugging that piece of cholla cactus where it's about 39 Celsius.

As far as I can tell it has no pronounced issues. Cliffhanger eats over two dozen medium sized crickets (between 3/8" to 1/2" long) per feeding. It eats greens (frisee endive and rocket arugula) without issue. It's quite active in chasing loose crickets and running away from my hand when I try to pick it up. Stools seem fine from what I can tell, most importantly there are no undigested bits in there.

I'm thinking maybe there's too much UV(B) directly underneath the Sunray where its intended basking spot is? I'm waiting on a local retailer to restock Solarmeters, and from reading Dr. Frances Bairns's articles I know that metal halide bulbs can output quite an intense level of UVB.

Thoughts?
It's had "stress marks" on the throat and belly ever since I got it. Could it be indicative of something?

And here's why it's named Cliffhanger. Slept like that.

 

[KarrieRee]

viewtopic.php?p=1945606

Lighting

For the fourth item, we unfortunately have another issue, and this is where you will need to spend the most money on correcting the issue with the kit. The lighting. Now, if temperatures are the most important aspect of their health, proper lighting is a very close second. They both are absolute necessities, so don't think that just because you already corrected the first issue, that the second issue can slide. It can't!

The Kit comes with a dual dome fixture, which houses the basking bulb it comes with, and the UVB bulb it comes with. The fixture is fine, however it's not what you'd want to buy if you were setting up your tank from scratch. They give you the dual dome fixture because they want to make it convenient - 1 fixture houses your heat bulb and your UVB bulb. However, the UVB bulb they provide (and most UVB bulbs that fit that style fixture) is no good. Exactly why the CFL UVB bulbs are bad is a lengthy discussion so we will not be discussing that here, but if you spend some time reading around here you will quickly find out why. I will link to some threads explaining why at a later date.

So you can keep the dual dome if you want.
You can keep the basking bulb if you want - But only if it actually provides you the proper temperatures! You might find that you need a different wattage. If the bulb it came with isn't getting your temps proper, you need to change it out for a different type/wattage.

The CFL UVB needs to be replaced. It is basically (and by basically I mean almost completely) useless. It's not that the brand is bad, its that the CFL bulbs in specific are just generally way too under-powered. You will want to buy the reptisun 10.0 long florescent tube, or the arcadia tubes. These will require a florescent fixture, so you will need to buy the bulb, and a fixture for it. Some sites sell them as a combo, but you can easily buy them separately if you choose.

 

[cliffhanger2]

https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1945606

Lighting

For the fourth item, we unfortunately have another issue, and this is where you will need to spend the most money on correcting the issue with the kit. The lighting. Now, if temperatures are the most important aspect of their health, proper lighting is a very close second. They both are absolute necessities, so don't think that just because you already corrected the first issue, that the second issue can slide. It can't!

The Kit comes with a dual dome fixture, which houses the basking bulb it comes with, and the UVB bulb it comes with. The fixture is fine, however it's not what you'd want to buy if you were setting up your tank from scratch. They give you the dual dome fixture because they want to make it convenient - 1 fixture houses your heat bulb and your UVB bulb. However, the UVB bulb they provide (and most UVB bulbs that fit that style fixture) is no good. Exactly why the CFL UVB bulbs are bad is a lengthy discussion so we will not be discussing that here, but if you spend some time reading around here you will quickly find out why. I will link to some threads explaining why at a later date.

So you can keep the dual dome if you want.
You can keep the basking bulb if you want - But only if it actually provides you the proper temperatures! You might find that you need a different wattage. If the bulb it came with isn't getting your temps proper, you need to change it out for a different type/wattage.

The CFL UVB needs to be replaced. It is basically (and by basically I mean almost completely) useless. It's not that the brand is bad, its that the CFL bulbs in specific are just generally way too under-powered. You will want to buy the reptisun 10.0 long florescent tube, or the arcadia tubes. These will require a florescent fixture, so you will need to buy the bulb, and a fixture for it. Some sites sell them as a combo, but you can easily buy them separately if you choose.

I did not buy a pet store enclosure "kit". Everything is put together by myself using commercial off-the-shelf items.

Did I mention CFL UVBs in my post?

 

[KarrieRee]

When I saw 13 watt and 26 watt the only ones I knew of were the coil UVB's - from what I under stand a solid bright white basking bulb was to be used --- IMO I would never use coils - sorry just seen and heard too many horror stories w/ the coil bulbs --- you might want to try a solid basking bulb and see if the behavior changes ---

 

[cliffhanger2]

When I saw 13 watt and 26 watt the only ones I knew of were the coil UVB's - from what I under stand a solid bright white basking bulb was to be used --- IMO I would never use coils - sorry just seen and heard too many horror stories w/ the coil bulbs --- you might want to try a solid basking bulb and see if the behavior changes ---

As per my original post:

"Basking lamps: Exo Terra intense basking spot 150W plus Zoo Med Repti halogen 75W"

The Repti vision CFL bulbs are on the "cool" side purely to supply lighting. Furthermore those CFL bulbs are not even UVB bulbs.

 

[cliffhanger2]

Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[KarrieRee]

I am out try pming Cooper dragon find his name on one of the boards his profile will come up left side of page

 

[Claudiusx]

You mentioned ambient temps. Have you measured surface temps with your probes yet?

When it comes to the basking temp, it's the basking surface temp that is important.

Your whole tank is running a bit hotter than I like to see. Ambient temps I like to see are around 25c cool side ambient, 32-34c hot side ambient, 40-42ish basking SURFACE (for a baby/juvie)

Your dragon might just be not basking at the desired location because it doesn't need to. It's hot enough in the tank that there is no real reason to bask in the hottest location.

You might want to mess around with either removing some bulbs, moving them, or stepping down in wattage in 1 or 2 of them and see how things go.

Lighting is all a matter of trial and error since everyones tanks and setups are so different. In my 4x2x2's I run 1 40w bulb for heat. And in the summer I have to sometimes turn it off because the tanks get too hot.

-Brandon

 

[cliffhanger2]

You mentioned ambient temps. Have you measured surface temps with your probes yet?

-Brandon

Yes.

The intended basking spot is the square hay net, which measures 42 Celsius with a probe thermometer.

My dragon's "usual" basking spots all measure between 35 to 39 Celsius with both two digital probes and an infrared thermometer.

I'll try removing a 13W Repti vison and a 75W halogen to see what happens.

 

[Claudiusx]

The 13w CFL shouldn't be producing much heat, but I guess it all adds up if the enclosure is well insulated, or the house/room runs hot to begin with.

Let us know how the change goes. Like I said, it's all just trial and error, especially in the beginning. But once you figure out what works - smooth sailing.

-Brandon

 

[cliffhanger2]

The 13w CFL shouldn't be producing much heat, but I guess it all adds up if the enclosure is well insulated, or the house/room runs hot to begin with.

Let us know how the change goes. Like I said, it's all just trial and error, especially in the beginning. But once you figure out what works - smooth sailing.

-Brandon

Thank your for your advice.

I don't believe the enclosure is very well insulated. It is all glass, front opening with an air intake at the front and a mesh top. I did add two pieces of styrofoam panels to the sides (one of which is visible in the terrarium picture in my original post). The panels are approximately 1 inch thick and are black except for the coloured "rock face" facing the inside of the terrarium. The background is simply a sheet of printed vinyl taped to the outside of the terrarium.

I think my interior temperature is "lower than average". Due to high metabolism, I almost always feel hot, and I barely turn on any heating even in deep Canadian winters.

So I will have one 26W CFL at the cool side, and a 70W Sunray plus a 150W basking spot at the hot side. I will report back as soon as possible. Right now it is night and Cliffhanger is sleeping.

 

[cliffhanger2]

The 13w CFL shouldn't be producing much heat, but I guess it all adds up if the enclosure is well insulated, or the house/room runs hot to begin with.

Let us know how the change goes. Like I said, it's all just trial and error, especially in the beginning. But once you figure out what works - smooth sailing.

-Brandon

So, a bit of an update.

After having turned off the 13W CFL and the 75W halogen, thus leaving only a 26W CFL + 150W basking spot + 70W Sunray, like so:

The dragon was hugging a branch, visibly cold. I picked him up and he was colder than my palms.

So I turned the 75W back on and clustered them at together at one side, but this made that side way too hot (intended basking surface was at 47 Celsius).

Finally I removed the 75W leaving only the 70W Sunray and the 150W basking spot together.

The dragon still refuses to bask on the net, which is 40 Celsius now, but he will bask on that piece of black wire (a thermometer probe lead) or on the side wall, true to his namesake, for a few minutes at a time.

As before, seemingly good food intake (ate 50+ medium crickets today), good poops (no undigested bits), good activity level (runs very quickly from my hand, or jumps back into the terrarium when I do pick him up).

Your thoughts?

 

[cliffhanger2]

I forgot to add: With these three lamps, the hot side ambient is 36 Celsius and the cool side ambient is 29 Celsius. He never seems to visit the cool side or any of the caves/hides I put in the terrarium.

 

[Claudiusx]

It's possible be just doesn't feel comfortable on the netting. Maybe he thinks the gaps are too big for his body?

I wouldn't worry too much about him being cool to the touch though, he sounds very active and has a good appetite, he knows where to go to get warmed up, and he knows when he needs to heat up or cool down. For now, I'd just say let things go and if he's acting healthy, you're already winning the battle.

-Brandon

 

[cliffhanger2]

It's possible be just doesn't feel comfortable on the netting. Maybe he thinks the gaps are too big for his body?

I wouldn't worry too much about him being cool to the touch though, he sounds very active and has a good appetite, he knows where to go to get warmed up, and he knows when he needs to heat up or cool down. For now, I'd just say let things go and if he's acting healthy, you're already winning the battle.

-Brandon

Thank you very much. You're probably right about my dragon not feeling comfortable with the net. I bought this instead of the plastic mesh type of hammock after reading about dragons having their claws caught and ripped off by the very small holes.

Anyway that's one less thing to worry about. Much appreciated!