Anyone know what may have happened?

[DTRM30]

Hello all,
Yes I'm new here, but have been lurking and doing a lot of reading the past couple of weeks. Here and everywhere.

we are new to beardies (the reason for so much lurking and reading here), but did have anoles for 3 years a long time ago. They were older adults - so 3 seems to be about right once we got them. So familiar with the basics for reptile care even if not practiced.

So here is the rundown. My 14 year old son wanted a beardie for his birthday and I agreed. His friend has one. (I know it will end up being my responsibility when he goes to college in a few years, but I can deal with that - I have dogs, birds, chickens, fish .... what's one more right ?)

I looked high and low but no breeders closer than a two day drive and I didnt' want to have one shipped in sub zero temps. So, ended up at PetSmart on Saturday.

He picked the one that was active, alert, and was not afraid of motion near the enclosure. It had nice color, dark browns, some rust colored markings and a few rust colored stripes on it's head - lots of tail stripes - anyway Brought it home - and it promptly ate 12 crickets and two arugula leaves. It had started to chew on the fake plants so they were removed asap. It was like this for two days - active and hungry, eating everything, chasing down crickets (ate probably about 25-30 in the two days)- then it abruptly died. We misted it around 2x per day and it loved it - rubbed in the water, licked the log etc. On Monday when he got up for school - he said it looked fine (can't really say but that is what he said). I went in before I left for work, and it looked like it was on it's "last legs" - It wasn't just sleeping - it was lying on the ground almost dead. I gently picked it up, and gave it a soak for about 15 minutes (all I had time for) - and hoped for the best. It wouldn't open it's eyes, and if I hadn't held it's head up it would have drowned. I raised the basking log a couple inches closer to the lamp to increase the temp and place it on it's basking spot. My son got home a few hours later (early dismissal due to bad weather) and it was dead on the floor of the tank. He was devestated and blamed me - I must have done something wrong. He did handle it, but gently and never took it out of the enclosure or dropped it - though it did fall off of it's basking log once. He is very good with it.

The tank is a 55g Long aquarium I had sitting around in my basement. It had only housed fish so no amonia, cleaning solutions or bleach were ever used on it. I washed it with soap and water, rinsed well and got it all set up. It has a basking log, a hide, a water dish and a piece of driftwood. More was to be added once it got used to it's surroundings. We have a hammock, but haven't put it in the enclosure yet. I have a 150w red basking heat lamp that was to be replaced once it got older and could better handle the cooler night time temps and be turned off at night (his room is set on 67). We did red so at least it would be darker in the tank. There were no ceramic heat emitters available at the time. We have a reptisum 10 flourescent and currently, until I can get it replaced, the old aquarium strip light for daylight. Plan to get a new tube for that as well in the next week or so for broad spectrum light.

If anyone has any ideas, please let me know. We did do the "replacement" guarantee - and the new "Beardsley" is doing well (though it's not the same - you know how that goes - he was very attached in two days time). Not as active or as hungry but hoping that will come in time. Not interested in greens, but will continue to offer. But seemed very thirsty. We sprayed and it couldn't get enough off of the log, so I took a syringe and dropped water on the side of it's nose and it lapped up quite a bit. I ran out of time and had to get to work. Will offer more later. How much should it drink ? I went through about 4-5 syringes full (it didn't drink all of it, some just ran down the log - they are .3cc (30U) insulin syringes with the needle part cut off- I plant to get a dropper asap) I know they generally don't drink from standing water in dishes and should get most of their moisture from the insects/greens/baths so just curious. It's making me wonder if the first was dehydrated, coupled with eating tons of crickets - it became impacted ?

It appeared as though they were offering just some sort of pellet type food at the store so not sure if it was eating or hydrating (looked like little greenish balls). It also had fake plants in the enclosure in the store - wondering if maybe it ate some considering it wanted to eat the one we had and it became impacted ? Not really sure what happened. Everything seems right as far as I've read on here.

I know I'll probably never know for sure - but to at least have an idea to give my son as to what may have happened. He doesn't understand how it could go from seeming perfectly healthy to dead in a few hours despite all I've been trying to offer for reasons.

I've filled out the questionairre below - (I'm familiar with those too - I'm on a chicken forum that uses the same format - very helpful)

How old is your dragon? 6-8 weeks
How long have you had your dragon? 2 days
How long is your dragon? 6-7"
What is the sex of your dragon? unknown
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? 55G Long
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? Reptile Carpet
Do you use UVB lights? Yes
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? Flourscent
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)? Reptisun 10
How old is your UVB bulb? new
How close can your dragon get to the UVB? 6-8"
Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage? Is it a white or colored bulb? Red 150w
What are the basking temps? 100.2 and up (has a higher spot on the branch closer to lamp that it can get to - didn't take temp but it's about 2" closer so about 107 I'm guessing)
What is the cool side temp? 75 far end, 80 mid and 90 ambient air at basking end
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? Digital wired probe used for chicken egg incubation that also measures humidity.
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps? 100.2 right on log - 107 approx on upper side of log
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad? no
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific. small circkets and arugula leaves - will introduce more slowly.
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)? 3x daily morning, afterschool, night
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc? didn't get the chance - gut load cricket feed on the way. Currently eating greens, grapes and potatos.
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them? ReptiCal Calcium and multivitamin dust - used once each.
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? yes - but last couple appeared to have no urates
Do you bath your dragon? How often? plan to once per week or once every two weeks -
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath? yes
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done? never had the chance
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? no

 

[AHBD]

Hi there...I'm sorry that you + your son had this experience. It sounds like you have a good set up, and I think that your guesses as to whst may have happened are very likely to be the cause. I never put fake plants in my beardie tanks for just that reason, some beardie will try to eat trhem. So it may have eaten a fake leaf at the store and became severely impacted. And you were sure that the crickets weren't too big ? Of course it's just a guess, there are freak accidents that can happen, and someone else may offer other scenarios. If your new baby dies , it may be that they have a disease, but they usually don't just drop dead as babies, there is usually some lethargy, lack of appetite over a period of time, days or weeks before death. So...I hope your new one does well.

 

[daner923]

Ok, mostly doing great. Not sure why the first one died, it may have been sick before you got it.

A few things:
1) make sure the crickets are not bigger than the space betwen his eyes. Impactions can cause death.
2) Lose the red light. During the day, beardies need bright WHITE light to thrive and protect their eyes from the UVB light. If it is above 65F overnight, you don't need any light at all. Even a degree or two below probably won't hurt much, and is better than not sleeping due to red light.
3) Arugula isn't a great staple green. It is very high in vit A. Try to get collard, dandelion, or mustard greens instead.
4) You need to bathe more. A baby dragon needs to be bathed at least every other day. The little ones dehydrate quite fast. Once he is a bit bigger and sturdier, you can drop that to 2-3 baths a week, but that's about the frequency they need to be bathed.
5) Don't mist in the tank. It raises humidity, which can cause respiratory infections. You should do that in a separate enclosure or just out on the open.
6) Make sure you dust with calcium 5 days a week, one feeding per day, and multivitamin 2 days a week, one feeding per day.

Also, just FYI - the 55 gallon long will not be a good home once he is bigger - they are too narrow. A 40 gallon breeder, even though it is "smaller" has a larger footprint, so the dragon has room to turn around.

 

[AHBD]

As far as having a 55 gal. for an adult, they are really fine because beardies love to climb, so what they lack in a few inches of floor space they make up for with a taller climbing area. Babies do feel lost at times in a very large tank, so be sure he can find his crickets. You can shake the crix in a jar with a pinch of calcium powder and this will stun them so they are dizzy and easy t for the baby to grab. Just do a few at a time so he's not overwhelmed by a large number of them. For watering, you can do as you were for drinking as long as you don't soak the reptile carpet. Just drip on his head and he will drink. Baths can be every 2-3 days, but drinking can be done with the spray method as well. One thing to be ware of, as Daner mentioned, is high humidity, so the factors to consider are really also how humid it is where you live. Southern states that are hot + humid will increase the over all humidity and you want to be careful that you don't get his tank wet. Baths carry their own risks, such as aspiration + drowning especially for a weak baby or if left alone. Misting is confused with spraying or dripping water on their head, misting is what people do for tropical species like anoles, basilisks, etc. Those type of lizards need a humid tank that is sprayed to raise humidity, but giving a beardie water via spray bottle is not the same, it should be just a very small amount on the nose/mouth area, and as you can see from the baby you had, it was lacking hydration from the store it came from and eagerly drank. Beardies DO need a little humidity in the tank, about 20 - 30 per cent , if the humidity is too low that contributes to retained shed that can constrict blood flow to tail tips + toes. So, there are just a few things to consider.

 

[DTRM30]

Thanks - I appreciate all your input !

The crickets are tiny to small - the smallest I could get so don't think that was the problem. Def not bigger than the space between it's eyes. But who knows. I plan to set up a breeder tank for them like I had with my anoles. Easy and much cheaper than buying them all the time.

That was the other thing I offered him - was that maybe there was a health issue that we don't know about- sometimes things like that just happen. Or maybe someone in the store injured it.

We didn't get much chance to do bathing since we only had it for two days but will be sure to tell him every other day with this one until it gets bigger. We bathed it yesterday for 15 min. (didn't want to over stress it) Will increase that time to 20 - 30 min.

I am working on another bright light - should have it in a few days. The arugula is what I had for my birds - I go grocery shopping every friday so planned on getting some staples then. I didn't expect the first one to eat it so readily. I generally try to buy my birds a different green each week so will just get greens for the lizard and he/she can share with the birds

The humidity level is about 20% right now even after misting (when I say misting - it's really spraying the side of the tank and the log to get it wet enough to lick water from and some on his head since he/she is sitting on the log). I know my hygrometer/thermometer is accurate since I use it for incubating eggs, which are very sensitive to humidity and heat levels. But I will let him know that he can mist outside the enclosure if it increases beyond that.

He's so nervous about the new "Beardsley" now - I don't want to over do it. The new one ate about 4 crickets when it came home yesterday, but that was it. I know it can take several days for it to acclimate. Keeping my fingers crossed ! So far, it seems alert, but does seem to sleep a lot too. It was on it's basking log - until it started gaping, then got down. Slept in a corner (checked in before I went to bed) , then back up - so it is moving around. It didn't eat the crickets (we put in another 4-5 this am and some cut up greens - cooked green beans and one arugula leaf) so I put a potato in there for them to eat instead of Beardsley.

I'll also let him know he doesn't need to leave the light on all night. I think he's nervous that Beardsly will get too cold - and will remind him to dust with the calcium and vitamins. We have a little 1lb container that potato/macaroni salad comes in from the grocery store - that works perfect. I think I'll make a little schedule and stick it to his door as a reminder of what he needs to do on what days.

I have a friend who owns a glass shop - the plan is to build a bigger tank. But for now - we used what we had - it was just sitting not being used so better than buying a "starter" tank that is way smaller than the 55g. We have a hammock that hasn't been put in yet - so that will give some climbing room. I want to build one that has doors on the front so we don' thave to reach down from the top. Much easier. Between him and my husband who builds machinery for a living - i think we can come up with a great enclousre over the summer - maybe with some built in basking areas and etc - I think Beardsley will be very spoiled. But that is the plan anyway.

 

[AHBD]

Oh, I missed the red light, Daner caught that and good thing, that's a real important factor.

 

[DTRM30]

Now I feel awful if it was dehydrated Makes me feel like I should have done more when we got it home.
It seemed so active it hadn't crossed my mind. It was only when this one seemed so thirsty that I thought it may have been a contributing factor - realizing after the fact that they likely don't offer any water otheer than the water dish.

Well be fixing the red light soon - before the weekend. No worries there - thanks for the heads up - I knew they were desert critters so can handle cooler temps at night, but being so little my son was worried it would get too cold so we left the heat on. When I get the new heat lamp, I'll see if they have a ceramic heat emitter - so if it's cooler in the house it won't disturb it's (and my son's) sleep.

I do have three lights right now though. The uvb, the read heat lamp and a regular flourescent from the aquarium - so it's not like the only light is the red light. But the aquarium light is designed for fish so know it has to go.

 

[AHBD]

Well, dehydration didn't kill him, you say he was eating, drinking + active so that wasn't what caused his death at all. You did fine.

 

[DTRM30]

I would like to extend my thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this matter.
My son called when he got home from school to give me an update and after I told him that according to other owners it appears as though we are on the right track and he didn't do anything "wrong" - he's feeling a bit better about the loss.

The new Beardsley is doing well so far - but it's only been a day. It appears to have eaten some of the green beans and arugala I had left and a few of the left over crickets during the day. It did not seem thirsty, but it did drink quite a bit this am. He is going to give it a bath later.

Thank you for your support ! I many not post much, but I can assure you I will be here frequently reading.

 

[daner923]

Please keep us posted on your son's dragon as you are able - hopefully he will begin to thrive after he gets over his relocation stress, and you will get years of happiness from him

 

[DTRM30]

I'd like to post a pic but not sure how on this site. We think Beardsley (2) is in fact a he - even though young and not 100% accurate, we can def. see the two oval areas on the base of his tail. I can post a pic of Beardsley (1) as well the day before he/she passed. Glad I took it - so at least we have something to remember he/her by.

 

[daner923]

You need to upload picture to photobucket or a similar hosting site. Then you copy the URL and paste it here, in between the img codes, which you get by clicking the img button above the posting box.

 

[DTRM30]

Thanks I haven't used photobucket in so long - I logged in and there are pics in there that I completely forgot about.

anyway, here is beardsley the first - looks like I got him during an exhale - as he really was not skinny or wrinkly at all. This was the day before he passed.

and this is beardsley the second - taken yesterday. The water looks deeper than it is. it really only just barely covers his toes. I've seen him on/around the dish a few times so am leaving it for the time being. Maybe he's drinking or soaking when we're not home. And yes, I removed the cricket - saw it after I took the pic. In this pic he's very light orange/red with olive. Sometimes he sports darker colors with more browns.

Here is one with his darker colors -

I'll probably repost in another forum, but this is for those who responded here.

 

[daner923]

He is quite cute . You should post more pictures in the introductions section. Just be careful with the humidity levels. I actually left some water in the tank today because the humidity has been so low. Plus, Max has been drinking like 4 or 5 syringes full of water the last couple days, so I think he's feeling thirsty. Not sure why exactly.

 

[DTRM30]

Will do
So far so good with the 2nd. Keeping fingers crossed !
humidity hasn't gone above 20% or so even with the dish ... I'm more worried about him falling asleep in it - so making sure the level is very low.
He didn't want water today when I offered with the dropper - he just looked at me like " hey - what the heck ! " bath time later today anyway so not too worried.