anybody had this problem?

[bdchip]

ok im sorry this will be so long but i hope someone with experience with my situation can help. my dragon for months now he's been sitting on his joints. i thought that this was something he preferred, he doesnt do it all the time but sometimes when he is basking or just chilling he sits on his joints and sometimes he walks on them. as i said i thought that this was something he preferred then one day i decided to research this. after much research i came to the conclusion that he had a slight case of mbd. so i scheduled a vet app. the vet picked him up no problem and said is he always this relaxed and i said yes and he said well he should be restraining a little as the vet was not fully supporting him. the vet then begins to feel his body and examine him. then he covers my dragons eyes and gently bumps his leg onto the edge of the desk and im like what are you doing and he says well if you are walking and you stub your toe a message is sent from your foot to your brain saying pick up your foot. my dragon was not doing this. then the vet takes my dragons toe and squeezes it more and more until my dragon moved his foot away (it took much pressure) he did this to all four feet (same outcome) and he says thats not good he doesnt have much feeling in his legs/feet. he says this isnt mbd this is worse and i was like well how do we heal him. and he said well i cant be exactly sure what is wrong with him without running some tests on him and i said how much he said bloodwork was 80$ and xrays were 115$ and i was like i cant afford that right now so he said that we could give him antibiotic injections to see how he responds to that. so now my beardie has gotten his 2nd shot and goes for his 3rd tmrw. the vet says if it doesnt help then i need to decide if we are going to further diagnose. iam wondering has anyone had this problem or heard of these symptoms? i explained my husbandry to the vet and he said everything sounded good. i know you guys will ask so heres my set up

he is a male about a year and a month.
he is in a 4x2x3 melamine cage
i use reptisun 10.0 and change every 6 months.
i also have a solar glo mvb.
there is a fluorescent bulb for light.
he has a basking spot of 105 and one of 100.
hot side ranges from 90-95
cool side ranges from 80-85
there are things to climb.
i use tile for floor.
diet consists of (order of most used) crickets, superworms, mealworms, roaches, wax worms.
veges & fruits consist of collard greens, mustard greens, occassional turnip greens, green beans, parsnips, squash, mango, grapes, and rarely kale.
i mist him every now and then most of the time i use a water dropper on his nose.
Bath once ever 1-2 weeks.
ive had my dragon since he was 2months old
dragon is 18-19 inches
clean cage every sunday.
dragon can get within 10in of reptisun 10.0 and about 12-14 inches from mvb
to record temps i use digital thermometers and a temp gun
i feed my dragon in his enclosure
i give him a salad in the morning along with some worms in a bowl and some crix.
if he eats all of the crix and worms i offer more 2 hrs b4 lights go out and also give him another fresh salad of something different.
yes i gutload
yes i use vitamins (herptivite sat&sun) i use repcal calcium phos free once mon-fri
he poops regularly
doesnt share with another dragon
never gotten fecal done

also side note he is still very active eating, basking, pooping, running around his cage, climbing things.

so if anyone has encountered this before please help me out. i dont have the money for all of the tests but i want him to be in good health1

THANKS SO MUCH

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Personally, I think that your tank setup looks fine. The Reptisun 10 is that a flourescent tube light or a compact or coil light? You change that every 6 months, so that should be good. How close is it to your dragon? How old is the Solar Glo?
Can he fully support his bodyweight on all fours & does he have any physical deviations such as a curvature in the spine, etc?
Together, that is a good amount of UVB so I highly doubt he has metabolic bone disease. However, he might be having some trouble absorbing the calcium which can cause slown neuromuscular responses. I suggest since he seems like he could be having calcium problems that you switch to a liquid calcium as that is absorbed more easily than powdered types. You can order it from: http://www.beautifuldragons.com Go to the medication & supplement link.
What type of thermometer do you use to measure your temps with? A stick on type of thermometer, a digital probe or a temp gun?
As far as that type of test the vet ran, I have done similar types of tests on a dragon with a back injury. He had feeling in his feet, toes, etc as he did withdraw them when I pinched the bottom of his feet. However, it did take a bit. They are very docile & if you pinch their feet or hands gently, they don't normally move them unless you really pinch them hard.
So I do not think that type of test really indicates anything in my opinion. I also do not agree with automatically giving him medication when he really did no blood test or had no idea what was wrong with him. Antibiotics given for no reason are more harmful than good. Which one did he give him? What is the dosage?
I realize that the bloodtest is expensive, but, that is the only way to determine if anything was wrong with his organs or with his calcium levels.

Can you post a picture of him for us?

Thanks.
Tracie

 

[bdchip]

reptisun is tube.....he can get within 10" to reptisun.......solar glo is ab a month (i buy all my lights for all my animals on the same day and write dates on the boxes).....when he walks he supports himself he climbs things too........no curving in the spine and no swelling in legs.....i use digital thermometers and a temp gun.......i am totally not sure what medication is i think something with a b like benzirin(what comes to mind) but i will find out......dosage idk either he is doing one injection every 3 days of a small dosage. well should i get the bloodtest or the xrays? THANK YOUUU SOOOO MUCH!!!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Personally, just based on your setup I doubt he has metabolic bone disease. So, I would opt for the bloodtest before getting an x-ray. That will immediately tell you more than just an x-ray. If he has an infection, it should indicate elevations in WBC's on the bloodtest.
How is he doing today? Great that you keep track of the dates on your UVB lights, that is important.
Can you post a picture of him too?
Was the medication called Baytril maybe? That is a commonly used antibiotic for reptiles.
Thanks.

Tracie

 

[bdchip]

i looked at the receipt from the vet and it said the medication was baytril. well he has been acting normal since his injections but today he slept in for a few hours after the lights were on....he wasnt really sleeping but just laying there under this wooden thing i made him. so i picked him up and put him by his salad too see if he wanted any....he didnt eat any but went up to his basking spot and is now sitting there. also i have noticed that he has a black beard for most of the day now. ever since weve taken him to the vet he stays black bearded for quite a while throughout the day.

i am uploading pictures right now so in like 15 minutes ill have some pics up

 

[bdchip]

that was kinda funny i just took those pics like ten minutes ago (with my camera phone too quality eh?) and from across the room he was black bearded and once i got close to take the close ups his black beard went away.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Your tank looks great. I would like to comment that the basking light could you move that Solar Glo closer to be directly beside the
Reptisun 10? That would encourage him to bask more & that way he could get UVB & heat.
Can you move the basking platform over any?
Does he spend much time underneath the Solar Glo warming up?
His beard is dark alot now? That is most likely due to the Baytil drying him out. They don't feel very good on medications. Do you feel that he needs it? If not, maybe he should not get another injection right now until you get a bloodtest done to determine if there is any reason that he does need it.
What is the dosage of the Baytril?
Is he eating? Make sure that you do give him extra oral fluids right now.

Tracie

 

[bdchip]

well i could move the solar glo unfortunately it will get way too hot at the height that platform is at. he doesnt really like to be any hotter than 100 so where he sits on top of the platform is 100, and where the solar glo is its about 105 he does go there but not much. yes his beard is dark alot more than it ever was, the only time it actually would get dark is when he would see my female beardie. iam not sure if he needs it because i dont have any experience with sick beardies, however from what i see i dont think so, i do want him to get better, but at the same time he seems like he is just like a human being with a cripple arm or so. he gets around no problem eats basks, but i would like it better if he wasnt crepid. from your knowledge is this "cureable" or will he always be like this? also do you think i should stop doing the baytril shots? i do trust this guy because the guy at the reptile store (who i am very cool with) said that this is his favorite guy in our area, he said that he was very straight forward and will tell you what is neccessary and whats not. the vet seems to be that way he has told me that he could do the bloodwork and xrays for the price but if it ended up being an infection then i would have to get the antibiotics so he asked me if i wanted to just try the antibitotics and see what they did, he said it wouldnt hurt him because he is giving him such a low dosage. however after 3 injections i dont see any improvements, what i see is a black beard that about the only changes.

i also ordered that calcium glubionate, i was wondering how much should i give him a drop a day or so? also can i give this too my other herps like my other beardie, iguana, frog? b/c in the description it says you can give it in small doeses to prevent mbd and such, or is it to strong?

so what do you think i should do? my situation is, i delivery pizzas 2 days a week and make about 100 bucks a week (in the process of finding a real job) and about 50 bucks of that goes to gas and such. so i cant really get the bloodwork right now at this moment. should i stop paying for the shots?

thank you so much for your help! its muchly appreciated!

 

[ronni1221]

I had a garter snake that needed antibiotic injections. He became extremely lethargic and refused to eat for quite a long time. He wasn't happy with the medication. We had to force-feed him mice (which is sooooo difficult to manage). Snakes can probably go much longer without eating than dragons (don't quote me on this). Although not a bearded dragon obviously, it is a reptile and perhaps they react the same way.

Call the vet and see if there's anything else you can do for him. Maybe feeding him repta-aid or another liquid food formula would be good to restore his vitamins and electrolytes and to keep him up to par. Also, If his black beard went away after getting up close to him with the camera, maybe he would benefit from some cuddle-time... :love5:

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Personally, I just do not think that sitting on his joints has anything to do with an infection of any sort. Just from looking at the pictures, he does not appear crippled. Does he walk on his wrists all of the time? Or just sometimes? He does not appear to have any swelling in the pictures either.
So, when he is sitting underneath his Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb, the closest basking area is from the Solar Glo, so the basking temp for him when he sits underneath his Reptisun is 100? Is this correct? Do you have a basking light anywhere else that I cannot see?
Does he use the Solar Glo very much? Just curious. The 100 for the basking is fine. Are you measuring the temperatures directly underneath the Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb, or the air temperatures surrounding the basking area? How warm is the entire tank?
I know you are using a digital probe & a temp gun to measure the temps which is great they should be accurate. I just wondered where you were measuring the actual temps where he is sitting.
My main concern is that just sitting underneath the Reptisun 10 all day he is not getting warm enough just under the tube light.
I don't see how the basking spot directly underneath the Reptisun 10 could be getting 100 with just the flourescent tube light as they just do not put out that much heat? Sorry, I am just a little confused. Is there any other light in that flourescent light fixture that I am missing or is it just the Reptisun 10 tube light?
I think he most likely does not need the Baytril shots right now, until we get the lighting & heating fixed. I think that the liquid calcium would do him more good. If he is not absorbing his calcium very well for some reason, which does happen, the liquid calcium should get his levels back up.
If you want to go ahead & get the liquid calcium I can tell you how much to give him for his bodyweight. Let me know what you want to do.
I totally understand about the job & money situation.
He seems healthy other than the fact that he walks on his wrists. Baytril is not recommended just to treat a mild case of Metabolic bone disease. It will do more harm than good right now.
On your calcium supplementation, you mentioned that you give it once, monday through friday. You give once per day, 5 days per week? Correct? Does he eat all of the feeders that have been dusted? He is at the age where we normally recommend cutting back on the calcium to 3 days per week, but I don't think we need to do that right now. I really think the liquid calcium should help him out.
Let me know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[bdchip]

he doesnt walk on his wrists all the time but sometimes. its more when hes just sitting there basking or what not, i can get a picture of him doing it if you want. the picture of him sitting on the platform underneath the tube light is 100. the solar glo is about a foot away and since heat rises where he sits its 100-101 in the front. no he doesnt have a basking light, that light in the back left corner is a normal 60w housebulb it gives off some heat. no he doesnt use the solar glo as much as he did when he was younger, what he'll mostly do is sit on the ground underneath it he doesnt like to get on the thing i made from melamine. on the left side of the cage by the grey fake rock thing there is a probe next to that, which measure 80 sumthin. in the pic there isnt a digi in there cuz i took it out. the temps are constant, hes been in there for a while so i know what it is, also i use these digi's without probes and just set them directly under the lights for a day or two and make sure they are the same. http://cgi.ebay.com/SPRINGFIELD-DIGITAL-HUMIDITY-THERMOMETER_W0QQitemZ370013748404QQcmdZViewItem those are the digis i use. they dont have a probe so i move them around. i also have a pro exotic temp gun that i use probably 50 times a day. i put the gauges where he likes to sit. the hottest the tank is 105 and the coolest is 80 with many temps in between hotside is 95 and cool side is 85. i understand where you are coming from but that light on the left is not one of those energy saving light bulbs its just a coil housebulb, which gives off heat. i installed that dual light fixture because i thought it wasnt hot enough and his platform went up about 5 degrees cuz i only had one light on instead of the two allowed and he wouldnt go up there, he only likes it 100. i will take some more pictures of guages showing readings and what not. the vet said that this was not a case of mbd? yes i have read about cutting back on supplements but once i started reading about mbd i thought i should not cut back to his lack of what seemed to be calcium.

again today he was black bearded for majority of the day and was running around all day head bobbing? he also ate like a champ, a bowl of salad along with about 15 superworms.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree, maybe don't cut down on the calcium quite yet. Let's see if we can get this straightened out first.
You have plenty of UVB sources so if he mostly sits underneath the Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb I just want to make sure that he has adequate eye protection too & that he is warm enough. I suppose he is warm enough if the Solar Glo is close enough to the UVB.
The tank, overall, looks pretty bright too. The coil household lightbulbs are bright, so they helped heat the platform up a little bit?
If that is all he likes it, around 100 then that is fine.
The digital thermometers are fine & great that you use a temp gun, also. That is good enough & your temps are great in there. He has plenty of temperature gradients.
He is still all blackbearding today, but, he still ate then?
That medication is affecting him but at least he is still eating, that is great!
There have been a few other members whose dragons have walked on their wrists but it has been alleviated. I would keep the calcium up for a little bit, but maybe you can go get an x-ray or a bloodtest to see if there are any other problems going on we need to know about.

Tracie

 

[bdchip]

today he ate alot again not much veggies though. yes the coil bulbs do heat it up. today he wasnt black bearded at all that i saw. i also cancelled his injections. AND! i got a job so in 3 weeks when i get my 1st check he will get bloodwork. also how much of the liquid calcium should i give him he is 530 grams 1 year and 1 month old. thanx for all your help! i will let you know how he is doing and update once i get the calcium.