Anorexic approx 2mo with failure to thrive

[woodnt]

Hello,

I have an anorexic beardie with failure to thrive. I don't know the age, but we got her/him at PetSmart. He (as we are calling for now) and the others were about 6 inches. I know there are a lot of variables, but I'm guessing he was about 2 months old. His habitat is a low-wide 29X12X12" glass viv with screen top which we mist several times a day, green carpet substrate from pet store. Has a hidey but he never uses it. Has a basking limb from the pet store. The pic of the viv is below. Highest temp is 165F at the tip, he never gets there. Lower it is 130-140 (occly he likes it there). On the back side, it is 105 (where he normally is, as expected) and on the front side it is 95. It trails off to around 80 on the other side of the tank. He has a food dish he has almost always ignored (used for appropriate veggies). He also has a water bowl to which he can get. He has a UBV bulb and basking bulb and night bulb.

We were feeding him a Phoenix worm a day plus small 1/4-1/2" crickets and size-appropriate dubias. I started getting him out of his cage for feedings so I could better track the cricket consumption as they would hide under the carpet. He never ate more than 10 crickets a day. Normally 5 or 6.

Two weeks ago, his appetite really trailed off. One day he would eat a tiny dubia. Another day he ate nothing. Next day he at another tiny dubia. Desperate, we even tried mealworms (which we normally avoid after researching them). Nothing. He became more and more lethargic. This is getting to be about a month after we got him. He didn't seem to grow and all appearing to have failure to thrive. He has not shed at all. We took him to a reptile vet specialist (she also consulted right then with her even more experienced partner) who pondered adenovirus, as they have seem that often, often with terminal outcomes, but our little guy when you handle him, esp vertically allowing him to climb thumb to thumb perks up. She said she definitely didn't think he was at deaths door and is better than many that comes through there. She checked a fresh stool we had for her. All that was present was pinworms (which she said she normally doesn't treat). She also swabbed for adenovirus, which is pending. She gave him so fluids intraperitoneally. She gave us a pinworm treatment once and repeat in 2 weeks, and then a 5 day course for coccidia. She also said he could be force-fed. We have given the treatments except the last pinworm. It is 8 days since we saw the vet. We have been force-feeding him silkworms, as they are supposed to be nutritious and a waxworm a day to get some fat on him as he is thin, but not cachectic. A few days ago, he threw up lunch at dinner time which at lunch had consisted of a waxworm and tiny dubia. No digestion at all. Looked as fresh as when we fed it. No more vomiting. Stool is well formed most of the time with liquid often and white uric acid. Switched to medium Phoenix worms and silkworms (I would say medium sized) on average twice a day, and 3 times if we can. He was 7gm at the vet and 7gm today per digital scale (sadly, I didn't measure him right after the vet, but will begin daily weights). I read in forums about probiotics, so I have ordered Bene-bac Plus Bird and Reptile which will arrive as early as Mon and as late as Wed. No probiotics at our PetSmart and PetCo. We are bathing him every day to every other day in warm water for about 10-15 min not letting the water cool. He defecates/de-urates usually once a day.

I would like to know any experience beardie owner's thoughts on what else we could be doing. We take animal ownership very seriously (even putting a pacemaker in one of our ferrets when she developed complete heart block). It would devastate us for our little Strax to not make it. If interested, more can be read at http://www.facebook.com/straxwoodlive.

I'm not sure if we caused it, but about the time this all started with the anorexia at about the same time that we rescued a little older, 3X bigger beardie with a significant portion of her (maybe her) tail gone. Note: they are separated and in different rooms, but we did introduce them once and they were in the same cage for a couple of hours while we went to find a bigger cage for the bigger beardie.

 

[diamc]

Welcome to the forum. The poor little thing, sounds like you and your family have tried a lot of different things.

Would it be possible to give us a run-down of your setup? What is the wattage of heat bulb(s), brand & type of UVB as well as the distance of it? (It actually should be alongside the basking bulb so he can get the benefit of both bulbs while he's basking but since there are some UVB's that are not good causing all sorts of health issues, we need to know which one you have first.) Also, what type of thermometer are you using, digital strip, round gauge (dial), temperature gun or digital with long wire & probe end?

How often have you been dusting with calcium & vitamins? What greens/veggies has he tried?

I noticed that you're misting in the tank, that's really not a good idea because it can raise the humidity too much which can cause an upper respiratory infection. And, I actually would recommend removing the water dish because very few beardies drink from standing water and having it there could also raise the humidity. Babies sleep very soundly and I would be worried about him falling asleep in the water dish.

Since the temps are so high, it sounds like you could drop down a bulb wattage. I would worry about those high temps as if over 110, it can cause rapid dehydration and even a heat stroke.

Good that you had a fecal checked and also tested for Adeno (that was my 1st thought.) The Benebac gel should help him out some, they really like that too. Have you thought about picking up some chicken & squash baby food, mixing a small pinch of the supplements in that and dropping it on his nose with a plastic medicine dropper to see if he will lick it off? Most beardies really like that & it is so much less stressful than force feeding for him & for you.

I noticed on one of the pics on facebook, that you're using a red light bulb at night. Unfortunately, they can see red and it can disturb their sleep. Since he's so tiny, would be a good idea to get a ceramic heat emitter which gives off heat but no light and to keep his tank about 80 at night to help boost his immune system.

I know this is a lot of info and we have a lot to cover. We all would really like to help this guy to get healthy and thrive so we are glad you found this forum. We are obsessed with beardies and most of us have had them for many years.

 

[woodnt]

I am so thankful for the reply. First, I should have mentioned that he falls asleep in the middle of force-feeding. He'll have half the silkworm or Phoenix worm in his mouth and fall asleep. My wife will gently bob him up and down to wake him up and he'll eat a little more, then fall back to sleep. We just put the first part of the larva into his mouth, and he generally does the rest. He just won't snatch it up on his own. I have dropped water on his nose, and he won't lick it off. We have given some water (it is de-chlorinated RO water with Ca, Mg minerals reinserted, kinda like Dasani bottled water) in a syringe when we were giving him his meds. I haven't tried what you suggest with the chicken/squash baby food, but we will. Would love the be able to not force-feed, esp when I'm away on travel with my job as my wife couldn't force-feed by herself. We normally don't dust with calcium for him because of the high calcium in the Phoenix worms (vet said no signs of MBD). MultiVit dusting once or twice a week, but we gave him Vit dusting several 3 days in a row this week because I wanted to make sure it wasn't a Vit issue. I actually have been over several days dusting with MultiVit on his silkie only.

As far as how the temp is measured, it is by a quality heat gun 2" away.

It is really irritating to me as this system was a setup FOR beardies by Zoo-Med and included the red light. I went and turned that light right off. I have a night-time ceramic heater for our other beardie and for our veiled chameleon at night as I prefer these. I was just going to use what was provided in the "kit" and when it blew, get him a ceramic that lasts so much longer anyway.

I was misting because the humidity by digital hygrometer seemed low to me at the low 40's (with the misting). I don't know what it would be without the misting.

Bulbs during the day are: Zoo-med 100w basking 12" from where he normally basks (at the 95 or 105, spot). The UVB is Zoo-med ReptiSun 5.0 and is on a diagonal of about 18" from where he basks, but he is not always under the basking. At other times he is on the other side right under the UVB. When he is on the floor, it is a little over 12". As you can see him in the picture of the viv, he will sometimes get on the cactus in the back left corner (like in the pic). This is about 6-8 inchs from the UVB depending on how high up the cactus (it is fake) he climbs. I'll go get a ceramic heater tomorrow for night time.

If you tell me to go get a Mercury Vapor, I'll do it in a heartbeat if it will help save him (wattage advice appreciated). I was thinking about converting to these anyway since they are guaranteed (at least Zoo-Med) for a year. What is your advise about lighting?

Thanks so much for the suggestions.

Nathan

 

[diamc]

The way you described him falling asleep while being fed a worm almost sounds to me like he is just so stressed that he is trying to block it out completely. Although, I may be wrong. Unfortunately, I have had to force feed on & off over the many yrs I've had beardies and I do remember one of my males doing something very similar, he was just giving up so he would like "shutdown" and close his eyes tight because it exhausted him. Also, antibiotics are very rough on their stomachs destroying the good gut flora so that could also be a reason for his not eating. The Benebac should help but if it's gonna be a few days before you get it, you could pick up some SOY (non-dairy) yogurt that comes in different fruit flavors and give him that as a temporary probiotic.

It seems like his eyes may be bothering him too. Is the Repti-Sun 5.0 a fluorescent tube or a coil/compact type? If not a tube, please turn it off immediately because there have been many health issues involved in using the coil and compact UVB's including eye issues (photo-kerato-conjunctivits), lethargy, loss of appetite, etc. If the 5.0 is a tube, it actually isn't strong enough for bearded dragons and won't prevent metabolic bone disease or other disorders.

If you're gonna give the baby food a try, it makes it much more pleasant for them when you heat the mixture in the microwave a few seconds to take the chill off. If he won't lick it, you could use a needleless syringe and squirt just a small amount in the side of his mouth because once they get a taste, they really like it. Since he is so small, I would use a larger amount of the chicken than the squash, if he was an adult, I would recommend just the opposite. It doesn't seem like he is getting enough calcium if he's eating such a small amount of phoenix worms, I would make sure he is getting enough calcium in his system. For his age, his feeders (non-phoenix worms) should be dusted with calcium with D3 for 5 days a wk but only one feeding a day. The dusting with vitamins twice a wk is good.

I'm glad to hear that you're using a temp gun and holding it 2" away from the area you're checking so you certainly are getting the right readings.

Unfortunately, the pet stores don't know a lot about the correct lighting and really don't have the knowledge to be able to share all the right info. I guess it's impossible for them to thoroughly study each and every animal they sell. That's why we're here and why this forum was started many years ago, we are obsessed with bearded dragons and have become very knowledgeable about them. They are such smart and amazing creatures, so loving too.

I'm glad you turned off the red light, a CHE will be so much better for him and as I mentioned in my other post, a night time temp of about 80 should help him out.

The humidity level for beardies should be about 25 to 40. Sometimes we can't prevent it from going higher when the humidity outside is so high even with AC's running but best to keep it on the low side.

A good UVB light should be right alongside a bright white basking bulb so that he can benefit from both bulbs at the same time. If he's spending more time on the cooler side, I suspect he is too warm in the basking spot.

Some MVB's are better than others. Some put out a lot of UV output and others are not as strong. Since he's only in a 18x12x12 tank (11.22 gallons), that is actually too small for a MVB. We recommend only using one of those bulbs in a 40 gallon breeder or larger tank because of the strong UVI and heat they produce. Your best bet right now, would be to either get a Repti-Sun 10.0 fluorescent tube or an Arcadia bulb. http://www.lightyourreptiles.com

Sure can tell that you think a lot of this little guy, hopefully he can start improving very soon. Please be sure to keep me updated.

 

[woodnt]

Unfortunately, it is the ReptiSun 5.0 compact coiled fluorescent. Turned it off last night. What are your thoughts about UBV exposure regarding the entire viv? Should I get one that is the entire length of the viv or should I get one that will work more just over the basking spot?

I forgot to answer about veggies. We have tried kale, collard greens, carrots, and dandelion leaves. He wanted nothing up to the dandelion leaves. He ate one of those and hasn't touch them since, but it was this week and it was exciting to see him eat something on his own.

Also, I don't know why I said his viv was 18X12X12 in the original post. It is 29X12X12".

Thanks,
Nathan

 

[Gail]

Yes, you want to get a UVB tube that runs most of the length of the cage and make sure to mount it so he can get about 8" from the bulb.

 

[diamc]

Thanks for giving us a little more info. That's good that you turned off the compact UVB. I suspect that is a big part of his problem. To help soothe his eyes, you could pick up some Turtle eye drops or Saline Eye Wash that humans use to wash foreign bodies out of their eyes but make sure it's NOT the type used for contact lenses as those contain added chemicals. You should be able to find the Turtle eye drops at a pet store and the eye wash, at a drug store in the "eye" aisle. Or, you could use chamomile tea bags, put a bag in a cup of hot water and then let it cool, squeeze it out a little and test the temp by the side of your cheek to make sure it is not too hot. Place the bag on one eyelid and then the other.

Here's a link that will show you pictures and explain more about P-K-C from some of the UVB lights: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm Would be a good idea to leave that UVB off and for him not to have any UVB at all for a few days, even a wk, until he starts opening his eyes about 90% of the time.

It would be a good idea to get a fluorescent hood that runs 2/3 to 3/4 of the length of the tank, that way he can escape the UVB if he prefers to.

That's great that he ate some dandelion on his own. When mine were babies, they really liked escarole, endive, mustard & turnip greens too. All types of fresh squash are also great for them. In case you haven't seen it, here's the link to the best foods to feed in green print: http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html

I thought your tank looked bigger than an 11 gallon, with those new measurements, it's an 18 gallon.

How is your baby doing today? Have you had a chance to try the baby food?

 

[Spike1etta]

Sorry lots of info in your posts so I'm going to answer each one separately.
Please read the care shhet at the top of the forum, it will answer a lot of questions.

He (as we are calling for now) and the others were about 6 inches.
His habitat is a low-wide 29X12X12" glass viv

This is hard to maintain the proper temps in as you have found out.


with screen top

UVB will not make it through a screen so the light needs to be mounted inside the enclosure.

which we mist several times a day,

Misting does nothing, your BD is dehydrated and needs 30 min baths each day, starting right now...

Highest temp is 165F at the tip, he never gets there. Lower it is 130-140 (occly he likes it there). On the back side, it is 105 (where he normally is, as expected) and on the front side it is 95. It trails off to around 80 on the other side of the tank.

This is WAY too high, you are cooking the little guy with these temps..... Basking 105-110 cool side 85, night time temp can be as low as 65, without air conditioning vents blowing on him, he actually needs this cooling off period.


He has a UBV bulb and basking bulb and night bulb.

Ditch the night bulb

 

[woodnt]

Don't want people to get the wrong idea about the heat. At the tip top of the diagonal basking spot, it is 165 inches away from the 100 watt bulb. No beardie would easily hang out there. Moving down the diagonal, it is cooler. Where he basks it is either 105 or 95 depending on how he feels. Rechecked it yest and on the other side of the viv, it was 73 "ground" level. Definitely our little guy isn't getting cooked. He has a wide range he can thermoregulate, and it may be even cooler in his hide, but I haven't checked that.

You read some many things on the net about humidity. As long as 25-40% relative humidity is fine, that pleases me to not mist anymore.

We are giving daily baths to qod baths, but usually 10-15 min. His uric acid is white. If he truly were dehydrated, wouldn't his uric acid be yellow or orange?

I'm curious about how the UVB bulb could be hurting him if UV light doesn't get through a screen? Not sure how I would mount a UV hood/tube inside the viv.

We have a church meeting inside our home. It just ended. Haven't had a chance to make it to the store yet, but we are heading out now for a ceramic heater, soy yogurt, and the baby food as recommended. Will post back how he does with all this. He is acting pretty normal in his viv. Eyes open a lot, and we see him in different spots from time to time. He doesn't rove around constantly, though.

I'm very pleased we can hold off on the lights for a spell. The prices on Amazon are 1/2 of the prices at the local pet stores. We have Prime so can get the lights in 2 days of purchase (weekdays).

Thanks again for all the tips. Keep them coming.

Will post back later.

 

[diamc]

That's great to hear that his eyes are open a lot and that he is moving around in his viv, that's awesome.

Just to clarify, UVB can go through screen but the UV index is lessened by about 50% that way. So, it is recommended to mount the tubes inside the tank/viv so that the UVB is 6 to 8" from your beardie while in the basking spot. Some have used the 3M hooks to hold the UVB light up. Once I used metal shelf brackets to hold up the hood of the strip light and I was able to bend them around the bottom of the hood and then across the top of the tank, it worked very well.

Good that you're giving daily baths or so, I had to laugh at your qod baths, you must be in the medical field like I am lol as a lot of people wouldn't know what that meant.

Great that you will be getting a CHE, the yogurt and baby food. Yes, anxious to hear how the baby food works out, hope he really likes it. Keeping his tank about 80 overnight with the CHE will help boost his immune system which he really needs right now. It will also help him warm up quicker in the morning so you're doing the right thing, I just wanted to reiterate that.

Yes, the Amazon prices are much better and shipping is much faster than a lot of other websites.

Keep up the good job you're doing.

 

[woodnt]

If the baby food trick doesn't work, I was wondering if I should give him a day or two of no force-feeding so he has no stress (we are very gentle with open his mouth, but still ...) to see if he might no longer associate eating with stress to see if he might start eating on his own?

To the one poster that asked about veggies, as I said above, we have tried kale, collard greens, carrots, and dandelion. He touched nothing but the dandelion leaves, and that was only a small one and it was a couple of days ago. We've looked for others, esp escarole, but haven't found any. The advice we have received from several sources, for good or bad, is that not to worry about "babies" eating veggies as that will come later, but we still offer from time to time. Is that bad advise?

 

[woodnt]

Your right, I am a physician. You're also right, I shouldn't have said qod, but every other day. I'm trying to NOT rely too much on my human medical knowledge because reptiles are reptiles and humans are humans. I appreciate that knowledge and experience of others in this regard.

BTW, have similar lighting set up on our other beardie who is thriving, but will be redoing those lights, too. She is older and at least 3 times the size. She lacks a significant portion of her tail so I can't even venture a guess as to her age as I have found no charts on nose-vent length and ages but only nose to tail, which does us no good with our little sweetie.

I don't think my vivs are tall enough to mount them (UVB) inside and still have the space for either beardie as that would make the basking spot the wrong temp, too, because I would basically have to have the basking spot on the floor to provide the space to the bulb from the hoods I've seen. Now I'm at a loss as to what to do.

 

[diamc]

I think you're referring to me about the greens/veggies. It's true, babies need lots of protein rather than greens but it's still a good idea to offer some daily. You're right though, the main thing right now is to get some protein into him to help build his strength.

Let's see how the baby food goes first before deciding on skipping a day or 2 of no force-feeding. He's so tiny that his little body can't go long without protein. IF he won't willingly take the baby food off his nose, you could take a very small needleless syringe and squirt a very tiny amount in the side of his mouth, that can be done quite quickly to lessen the stress. I do think once he gets a taste of it, he will want more though.

 

[woodnt]

Let's see how the baby food goes first before deciding on skipping a day or 2 of no force-feeding. He's so tiny that his little body can't go long without protein. IF he won't willingly take the baby food off his nose, you could take a very small needleless syringe and squirt a very tiny amount in the side of his mouth, that can be done quite quickly to lessen the stress. I do think once he gets a taste of it, he will want more though.

I'm so excited to try!!! I so hope he likes it and goes for it!!!

 

[diamc]

I thought you might be a physician. I've been a medical receptionist for over 25 yrs so that's why I knew those abbreviations and using them, saves time. Yes, reptiles are totally different but you're doing very well. You may even have a 1/2" needleless syringe that you could use for squirting the baby food in the side of his mouth if needed.

That's great that your other beardie is thriving. Her size has helped her out. It's too bad about her tail, sometimes you can visualize how much is missing considering how long it would be if it went to the natural point of the end of where the tail should be. If you want to post a picture of her and the end of her tail, I may be able to help you know how much would be needed to make it complete and could figure out her approximate age perhaps. I'm stingy, I'd like to see pics of your little sweetie anyway. 8)

Oh, and please call me Diane.