An eye issue?

[Coreythebeardie]

Hi there,

I am new to this forum and have found it very helpful and interesting up to yet, so Id like to say a big thanks. I have recently bought myself a beardie, after wanting one for quite some time. He is around 10 weeks and ive had him for almost two, and is roughly 9 inches long from mouth to tail. My setup was originally using a 18" Reptiglo 10.0, which was what I had previously after housing a hermann tortoise for a while. He did have quite a large appetite when we first got him, but now hes chomping at 4 medium sized crickets each sitting and has 3 to 4 sittings a day, which I thought was a decrease.. This was on wednesday and since then ive been keeping track of what he eats. He's also recently been closing his left eye quite a bit, which is usually on the basking side but he also does it out of his viv. It appears to not be as widely open as the other maybe a little sunken, with no discharge. I was obviously alerted, and just today ive bought the reptisun 10.0 which luckily i came across.

He is yet to have is first bath, but his poop shows that hes not dehydrated as he gets all his moisture through his diet and the odd misting/nose drinking. Is there anything to be worried about or will this go in time or through bathing?

For additional information -

He has a basking spot of 110
Now has a reptisun 10.0 linear tube which he can reach at 7"-8"
Daily diet of collard greens, kale & cucumber at the moment which is misted and dusted with calcium supplement daily
As many crickets as he eats in a sitting, three to four times daily which are also dusted

 

[Embee]

Hello and welcome! :wave:

My guess is the eye and appetite issues are the residual effects from the ReptiGlo tube. These are two rather common issues that have been been coming up with this bulb. When you had the ReptiGlo set up, how close was your beardie able to get to it? Also, how OLD was the ReptiGlo tube when you started to use it with your beardie? Another common occurrence with this bulb (in addition to being rather poor UVB to begin with) is that is does not wear well, can be somewhat unpredictable.

Good that you have now secured a ReptiSun 10.0 tube. You're beardie will be MOST appreciative. You have him at a good distance so I'll just make sure of a couple of things. First, is your basking bulb BRIGHT WHITE LIGHT? Second, you will want to make sure that your basking bulb is "coupled" with your ReptiSun tube at the basking end of the tank as follows:

_______________tube
0 basking bulb

...so that the bright white light of the basking bulb can guard beardie's eyes from the UVB rays, which even with a quality bulb such as the ReptiSun can be harsh. Also, this provides the UVB and heat at the same time for optimum calcium absorption and thorough digestion... the placing of the lights is indeed, an important health factor.

All that said, it might be wise to suspend ANY UVB for a short time if you feel your beardie is experiencing eye issues. Often, when switching from a poor UVB to a quality one, it's best to give beardie's eyes a break for a few days so that they have time to heal, before installing the ReptiSun. We experienced this while using a compact, left eye closed most of the time. We turned the light off for a few days, and then installed the ReptiSun tube, and the eye issue took care of itself rather quickly. Hope you see same.

As to his appetite, as good strong UVB is responsible for appetite stimulation, you will likely see an incremental upswing once the ReptiSun tube has been in place for a bit...

How are the temps running in the tank? And with what and how are you going about gauging temps?

Only other thing I would address is size of crickets--just making sure as there are different definitions of medium. Just take care that the size of live feeder is not larger than the space between beardie's eyes.

The best,
Em

 

[Coreythebeardie]

Thanks for your reply!

The reptiglos age as a rough estimate was probably near the end of the 6 month period, if not passed. It served my tortoise for 2-3 months before disconnecting, following another few months again. As for its distance, it hasnt changed so was 7"-8" away from Corey.

I believe my bulb to be the bright white bulb, as i ditched the idea of my red bulbs because I checked up prior to buying him that they wernt the best? Ill try my best to explain the lighting positioning, but I think a picture maybe best :] the UVB strip is the length of the viv at the very top and back. His basking 'tree' is pretty much central, with the basking bulb at the left side, central top of the viv which is lower down than the UVB to get the right temperature. The heat lamp is also facing in a way that his basking area is lit 'white', so if its best explaining that as the dominant light? Unless of course hes facing directly at the UVB.

So it is indeed safe to not have UVB for a few days then? I do worry quite alot, especially after researching alot and finding the nasties like MBD.

His coolside is 80-85, with the option to be shaded or he sometimes likes to climb his leafy vine to the top of the viv which is also on the 'cool side' and is infact his sleeping spot strangely enough! God knows how hanging onto a vine is comfortable enough to deep sleep! Its not the best I know, but ive been monitoring with one of those stick on ones - this was directly positioned on the basking spot. The wood ive used remains quite cool, so his tum wouldnt get burnt. The basking bulb is a 50W, roughly 6-7" away from the basking log.

As for the crickets Ive started buying in bulk of 500, so i keep them in a well ventilated large tupperware container and feed them daily with what Corey eats. The website stated 8mm-18mm I believe, but the vast majority are a perfect size if not smaller. Thought Id add that he's a regular pooper, ranging from 2 to 3 per day.

 

[Embee]

Thanks for your reply!

You are most welcome!

The reptiglos age as a rough estimate was probably near the end of the 6 month period, if not passed. It served my tortoise for 2-3 months before disconnecting, following another few months again. As for its distance, it hasnt changed so was 7"-8" away from Corey.

Ok, this is likely what happened then. As these bulbs age, and the UVB rays (which are not great to begin with) start to wear, the low level UVB emissions become close to UVC's which are the damaging type rays that can cause the eye issues (among other things). Additionally, having a ReptiGlo 10.0 tube that close to beardie can accelerate the progression of this particular health issue. Here is a post (by Tracie, moderator Drache 613) that explains a bit more about how the ReptiGlo 10.0 tubes have come to be such a problem: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=101703&p=793076&hilit=ReptiGlo+10.0#p793076.

Given that your beardie was under a ReptiGlo 10.0, and an old one at close range, I would definitely give your beardie a break from UVB light for a period of a few days. and see if that left eye doesn't start to open more. Once you see improvement, then you can certainly install the ReptiSun.

I believe my bulb to be the bright white bulb, as i ditched the idea of my red bulbs because I checked up prior to buying him that they wernt the best? Ill try my best to explain the lighting positioning, but I think a picture maybe best :] the UVB strip is the length of the viv at the very top and back. His basking 'tree' is pretty much central, with the basking bulb at the left side, central top of the viv which is lower down than the UVB to get the right temperature. The heat lamp is also facing in a way that his basking area is lit 'white', so if its best explaining that as the dominant light? Unless of course hes facing directly at the UVB. . .The basking bulb is a 50W, roughly 6-7" away from the basking log.

I think I'm understanding (although a pic is always nice! ), and it sounds like the challenge is getting the right temp from the basking bulb at the basking site, which is why you have it shifted to the left a bit, and have beardie basking more in mid-tank, yes? Ideally, you would have the basking area at one END of the tank, that being the designated basking end to allow not only for the lights to be set up safely, but also to achieve the proper temp gradient which for a young beardie would be basking (DIRECTLY under the bulb/on the basking surface) 105-110, mid-tank 85-90 and cool side, about 78-80. My concern with this set up of course being that beardie is not basking directly beneath the heat and light but aside from it. Also, the possible temp gradient becoming "askew" as it were.

So it is indeed safe to not have UVB for a few days then? I do worry quite alot, especially after researching alot and finding the nasties like MBD.

I'm a worrier too. I hear ya! In answer to your question, YES, for a few days it's fine... even up to a week or more when the situation calls for it. Many people here on the forum have experienced similar symptoms in their beardies due to poor UVBs, and have had to wait for the ReptiSun light to come in the mail (order your next one that way [ahead of time] you'll likely save a bundle ), and beardie does just fine. But particularly, if your dragon is having an eye issue you don't want the strong UVBs of the ReptiSun to irritate the eye any further. We had ours off for about 3 days I believe and we saw an improvement fairly quickly. By the time the ReptiSun went in, the eye was on the mend, and recovered fully within a day or two.

My advice would be to observe your beardie very closely for the next few days and see if that eye is coming open a bit more. If it looks like his eye is becoming less irritated, and opening more, you can go ahead and install the ReptiSun. In the meantime, leave the basking light burning, and do try to get the basking light right over head if you can at all. Perhaps a lower wattage, or putting it on a adjustable stand might help, so as to be able to raise it up (this is what we do with our MVB and it's quite handy). What is the size of your tank, btw?

His coolside is 80-85

Again, for proper temp gradient, you'll want to try to get this down a bit, 78-80. I imagine if you can get the basking area to one side of the tank, this is problem that will clear itself.

, with the option to be shaded or he sometimes likes to climb his leafy vine to the top of the viv which is also on the 'cool side' and is infact his sleeping spot strangely enough! God knows how hanging onto a vine is comfortable enough to deep sleep!

Heaven only knows, but beardies (esp. babies) find the funniest ways to sleep! Our girl used to sleep on a single small vine, perfectly... she still tries to climb it now (it's been twisted over and so is thicker now), but it crumbles under her weight. Dear thing.

Its not the best I know, but ive been monitoring with one of those stick on ones - this was directly positioned on the basking spot. The wood ive used remains quite cool, so his tum wouldnt get burnt.

Ok this is something you will want to address ASAP. The stick ons are a problem for a couple of reasons. Mainly, they have been known to be up to 20 degrees off in either direction. When we got our digital with probe, we found that our stick on was off by a good 15 degrees (to the low). :shock: Can't say enough how important getting accurate temps in the tank is, for the reason of beardie's safety. And while you can certainly try to place the stick right on the basking spot, they weren't designed to be used in this way and being that they tend to be inaccurate overall, it's a risk to rely on such a temp. A tip: there is an inexpensive digital with probe thermometer available at WalMart and Lowe's. It's made by Acu-Rite and is around $12. It also has a built in hygrometer for gauging humidity which is a nice plus... humidity in the tank should be running 30-50%. Note: when using a digital with probe, take care to leave the probe sensor on the basking surface for a full 45 minutes BEFORE reading temp.

When you are able to get a probe thermometer (alternatively a temp gun, but these tend to be more pricey), please then update me on the temps in the tank.

As for the crickets Ive started buying in bulk of 500, so i keep them in a well ventilated large tupperware container and feed them daily with what Corey eats. The website stated 8mm-18mm I believe, but the vast majority are a perfect size if not smaller. Thought Id add that he's a regular pooper, ranging from 2 to 3 per day.

Ah, a fast learning beardie slave! Took me awhile to start ordering online of course, our beardie wasn't eating all that much at first due to the poor compact UVB. Glad you were able to get a proper size, and to hear that poop is happening regularly! Ah, we love our poop around here. LOL In any case, we're glad for online/bulk ordering as our girl puts away 50-100 bugs day (phoenix worms and crickets). :shock:

Please keep me posted on how your beardie is doing, eye, appetite et al.

Em

 

[Coreythebeardie]

Okay so I went out today on a daunting mission to find a digital thermo, the one I ended up with was a probe type digital thermo branded Salter which I think would be the equivalent of 20 dollars. The readings I got was the bask leveling off at 102.5f, the cool being 79-80f and the warm side being 90. Aslong as the reptisun doesnt give out immense heat, these readings should stay the same?

To get the right basking temp, Ive had to bring the basking spot closer to the bulb so he's like 4ish inches away from it now. Im not worried about him jumping on it, because he doesnt and wont, and it wont burn him because i have an accurate temperature but what about his eyes?

Ive used the gallon converter and my tank is 37.40 gallons.

I have give him a quick soak today, he isnt yet fond of baths, and his eye seems to be improving slightly.

Unfortunately nothing to comment on his appetite, but its still very early days and his reptisun isnt on yet.

 

[Coreythebeardie]

His setup and pics of corey are now in the intro section! :]

 

[Embee]

Okay so I went out today on a daunting mission to find a digital thermo, the one I ended up with was a probe type digital thermo branded Salter which I think would be the equivalent of 20 dollars. The readings I got was the bask leveling off at 102.5f, the cool being 79-80f and the warm side being 90. Aslong as the reptisun doesnt give out immense heat, these readings should stay the same?

To get the right basking temp, Ive had to bring the basking spot closer to the bulb so he's like 4ish inches away from it now. Im not worried about him jumping on it, because he doesnt and wont, and it wont burn him because i have an accurate temperature but what about his eyes?

Ive used the gallon converter and my tank is 37.40 gallons.

I have give him a quick soak today, he isnt yet fond of baths, and his eye seems to be improving slightly.

Unfortunately nothing to comment on his appetite, but its still very early days and his reptisun isnt on yet.

Sorry the mission to find the thermo with probe was so daunting! It's such a simple and useful item, you'd think more stores would carry them, yes? :dontknow:

Your tank is quite unique, dimensions wise. Very nice looking, indeed. Your temps are looking ok, but I'd still be wanting to get that basking temp up in the 105-110 range. Most using a tank of that size would opt for a higher wattage bulb placed at a further distance from beardie, and also at one end of the tank, rather than shining toward the middle. This would allow for a designated basking area on one side of the tank, a middle tank section with slightly lower temps, and then, a clear cool side--the all important temp gradient that I've mentioned previously.

Aside from that, I would like to caution as to the sand. It is not recommended for beardies in general (particularly the pet store, vita/calci types), but for babies it poses an even greater risk. The sand, when wet, can clump, and if beardie ingests any of it, either a lot at once, or small bits over a period of time, it can cause a serious impaction, which is extremely dangerous to your beardie. As beardie's tend to lick to sense their environments, and can also take in bits of sand while eating live feeders, the sand certainly presents a considerable health risk. Additionally, sand tends to harbor more bacteria than solid substrates and for this reason, is more difficult to keep safe and clean. Safest substrates for beardies are: tile, slate, repti-carpet, non adhesive shelf liner, or just plain old paper towel.

Being that your beardie is on sand, is there any sign that he may have gotten any into his eye? The sand along with all the other risks, can be an eye irritant as well... I'm still fairly convinced that the eye issue is largely attributable to the old ReptiGlo at close range, but it's possible the sand could have irritated an already ailing eye. One thing you can do is find some plain saline flushing solution in the first aid area of your local pharmacy and flush his eye a couple of times a day. In any case, it could soothe the eye a bit.

As to the appetite, yes without the UVB look for it to stay down, but one thing you can try is offering a little of jarred chicken baby food, mix with a little water, and dab a bit onto his nose, see if he will lick. This can be a good way to get some "easy" protein into him while you wait to assess his eye.

Hope that helps a bit!

Please keep me posted... Corey is a real dearie, btw. :mrgreen:


Em

 

[Coreythebeardie]

I went to Tescos yesterday and bought my tortoises a new spotlight and I was actually quite pleased. They do a 60 watt version and they are damn bright, so I was wondering whether itd be worth buying one of those and ditching the 50 watt exo terra sun glo? Or will the basking temp up a notch when the reptisuns turned on?

The only thing setting me back now is the actual tank and its little ability to accomodate my heat lamp. To move it more left, I could simply flip the bracket round and attempt to bend the bracket further to create a sort of opposite to how it is now, but my only concern then is that it wont be able to face down enough and will just be shining out of the side. I might also be able to remove some section of the metal screen to have it right at the top coming through the roof, with no bracket.

I did think that maybe it could be a sandy grain, but how hard would it be to see? I cant see anything in his eye at all, but possibly like you said it may have previously and helped the irritation. I did make sure his eye was hydrated in yesterdays bath time.

Last night he was flat on the sand which hes never done before, so I made sure he was still going strong but rightly he got moody and hid behind his rock - so he must of been fine lol, then suprisingly I wake up myself to find his face beginning to shed... a possible answer to the loss of appetite?

*EDIT* - I have bought a 60 watt spotlight from tescos, cut out the hole in the roof of the viv and its now positioned above the left hand side, directly above the previous basking spot and I think its much, much better. Its a hell of a lot brighter, rather than the dull orangy basking bulb. Im now getting a temp of 105 at his basking spot, and it looks like hes sitting/basking much more comfortable, with his forearms straight and his upper body raised like a beardie press up.

 

[zebraflavencs]

I just wanted to address, dusting all the crix at every meal... This can actually lead to caclium over dose, so only dust the first meal of each day, 5 days a week with calcium ( you got the without phosphates but with D3 ?) and 2 days with vitamins.
Janie.

 

[Coreythebeardie]

Ah I see, that might be another area that could do with a touch-up.

At the moment, at each sitting hes getting the odd cricket dusted. So if he eats about 18 medium sized crickets throughout the day, I guess about 4 or 5 are dusted. The way I dust them is simply grabbing one at random and 'dunking' it in a seperate dusting container.

His daily veg gets dusted everyday.

Now, what Im using is T-Rex 2:1, which I think does have the phosphates in. So you recommend this daily dusting with solely calcium powder, then this vitamin supplement in addition, meaning I scrap the T-Rex stuff?

Maybe he is getting too much supplement.. is it also light dusting?

 

[zebraflavencs]

Since you have only had him a short period of time, I don't think he is at a critical point, with the over supplementing. Here is what I'd advise though. Take an ordinary sandwich bag, the kind that zips shut. Place a pinch of cal w/o phos but W/D3. Toss in around 5 crix, and gently close, then turn over and over, until all are coated lightly. Just feed one by one from there, allowing them to crawl out.
Same with the vitamins, just a different bag
Janie.

 

[Embee]

Last night he was flat on the sand which hes never done before, so I made sure he was still going strong but rightly he got moody and hid behind his rock - so he must of been fine lol, then suprisingly I wake up myself to find his face beginning to shed... a possible answer to the loss of appetite?

Shedding can certainly do that to a dragon, yes.

*EDIT* - I have bought a 60 watt spotlight from tescos, cut out the hole in the roof of the viv and its now positioned above the left hand side, directly above the previous basking spot and I think its much, much better. Its a hell of a lot brighter, rather than the dull orangy basking bulb. Im now getting a temp of 105 at his basking spot, and it looks like hes sitting/basking much more comfortable, with his forearms straight and his upper body raised like a beardie press up.

Great! I think you will be most pleased with the additional wattage. I can see that the dimensions of your tank would make things a bit challening. And the brighter the better, so a win/win!

I just wanted to address, dusting all the crix at every meal... This can actually lead to caclium over dose, so only dust the first meal of each day, 5 days a week with calcium ( you got the without phosphates but with D3 ?) and 2 days with vitamins.
Janie.

Thank you so much for catching this Janie.

Now, what Im using is T-Rex 2:1, which I think does have the phosphates in. So you recommend this daily dusting with solely calcium powder, then this vitamin supplement in addition, meaning I scrap the T-Rex stuff?

Since you have only had him a short period of time, I don't think he is at a critical point, with the over supplementing. Here is what I'd advise though. Take an ordinary sandwich bag, the kind that zips shut. Place a pinch of cal w/o phos but W/D3. Toss in around 5 crix, and gently close, then turn over and over, until all are coated lightly. Just feed one by one from there, allowing them to crawl out.
Same with the vitamins, just a different bag

Yes, concur! The problem with the phosphorus is that it binds with the calcium, and actually hinders calcium absorption. We use an plastic container for dusting crickets (old/cleaned sour cream or yogurt containers work well). I drop the calcium powder in the bottom, add in the crickets and shake, and then drop a few in the feeding enclosure at a time until beardie's had her fill (as many as she can eat in 10 minutes or so). For whatever reason, I am just not all that coordinated with plastic bags, but I'm thinking that's some kind of personal problem on my part. :dontknow: LOL And as Janie mentioned, I use a different container for the vites.

The best,
Em