almost 2 year old beardie lack of growth

[secretevo]

I have posted on this forum several times, and do really appreciate the information I have recieved from this site. I have a 1 and half year old bearded dragon which I purchased from Petco (big mistake, I know). I didn't know the bad reputation till visiting this site. Any how, I have given this lil guy everything I know to do. He has a 2' x 3' x 3' enlcosure. With a heat bulb above his basking log with the temp there at 102-103 and it is 80 in his cool side. At night it drops to 70 and his lights go out on a timer. I do have the proper temp taking tools, not the sticker things on the wall. I do use a UVB bulb as well that I change out every 6 months. I use reptisun 10.0 and it is the proper distance to him by the products guidelines. I soak him several times a week, which is typically when he has bowel movements. I have offered phoenix worms, wax worms, crickets, meal worms, and a variety of greens and some fruit. I am always trying to find something new he might eat good. I can get him to eat a lil and thats it. From the time I got him still to this day the most this lizard has ever eated at once is 5-8 bugs and a bite of produce. I have never had him eat with vigor as other people's beardies seem to do. I do supplement his food a couple times a week with calcium powder, and spray his veggies a couple times a week with vitamins. It's not uncommon for him to go 2 days without eating. It happens often. I do not house him on sand, I know it is not recommended. I use a solid floor mat which I clean several times weekly. I have had fecal test done on him recently and he was positive for pinworms. Which me and the vet gave him ivermectin. (i am a dog and cat vet tech, but contacted an exotic vet about the treatment) So my lil guy is only 12-13 inches and I know ALOT smaller than others of his size. I think I have covered all the things that I might be asked about his living situation. I will be happy to answer any other info you might need. I am just looking for some idea on what else I can do. He doesn't look skinny or un healthy. He actually looks perfectly fine, just small. I don't understand..
thanks in advance, Christina

 

[Gail]

Did you have him retested for parasites? also know that ivermectin is toxic to reptiles and deadly to some snakes. You should have used panacur instead, its much milder on the system.
I've heard really good things about reptaid for dragons with poor appetites, maybe it would help your guy.
http://www.reptaid.com/

 

[secretevo]

Did you have him retested for parasites? also know that ivermectin is toxic to reptiles and deadly to some snakes. You should have used panacur instead, its much milder on the system.
I've heard really good things about reptaid for dragons with poor appetites, maybe it would help your guy.
http://www.reptaid.com/

Ivermectin is not labeled for reptiles as it is not for many animals it is used on. However I was informed by an exotic vet that it would the best to use for the heavy case of worms that my beardie had and that he had used it safely on a regular basis. We just gave the first dose a few days ago, he gets a follow up one 2 weeks later. I will do a re-check on the fecal at the end of treatment.

 

[dragonfanatic4454]

I would say the first problems is getting it from petco which you now know was not so good. I worked at one during college for a few months and the animals especially reptiles were not given proper treatment and care that they needed to thrive. IMO, that is reason number one your dragon is on the small side. The baby stages are some of the most crucial to get things right as far as development of the beardy and to be in temps tht max in the mid 80's instead of the mid 90's-100's doesn't allow for the beardies to digest properly and therefore not eat as much causing a lack of growth.

The next thing that would cause a shortage in growth is the parasites. Depending on how long your beardy has had them for, they may also have contributed ot the lack of size in your beardy. At least this is something you hopefully caught early enough to not do any further damage. With your beardy being almost 2 years, it is probably past any stage of major growth an unfortunately you will probably just have a smaller beardy which if you wanted just a pet isn't such a bad thing. If yo uwere planning to breed on the otherhand, you are probably out of luck. There is nooooo way a female would breed at that size successfully, and a male would probably be too small to dominate the female, although I guess it could still happen. I hope everything works out for you and your medium guy. Keep us updated on the retest.

 

[Buggsy]

I would just like to throw something out there, you said the UVB was the distance the manufacturer recomends? Is that 20". Studies have proved with the reptiSUN10, 6-8" is actually what they need.

 

[spyder79]

As far as reptaid is concerned, it is great for boosting appetite and boosting the natural immune system. Though i dont know that it will be able to repair damage done by ivermectin. I did a quick search on Ivermectin and found tons of information on no using this drug in reptiles. Below is a summary of some of the info i collected as well as a link to a website with a full writeup on it and a excert from the Merck Veterinary Manual. All show Ivermectin as being a last possible resort certainly not a first choice.

Panacur is 1000 times safer and proven in reptiles. Ivermectin is known to kill turtles and tortoises, cause gout and death in chameleons, and there are reports of bearded dragons having a slow and painful death brought on by this drug. Any vet that suggests this as a first choice for getting rid of Pinworms does not know reptiles (you do not need to know reptiles to be an "exotic vet" birds and exotic mammals can give you that title as well). It has been shown to cause mass organ failure in many snakes and lizards.

http://www.exclusivedragons.com/CareInfoLibrary/ReptilesandIvermectin.html

Copied directly from the Merck Veterinary Manual

The drug of choice for treating nematode infections is fenbendazole at 10-25 mg/kg, PO, for 3-5 days. Administration is stopped for 10 days, and then the 3- to 5-day regimen is repeated. Administering fenbendazole on consecutive days is more effective than giving doses once every 7-10 days. If protozoans are to be treated concurrently, dosage may be increased to 50 mg/kg fenbendazole with the aforementioned regimen. When parasites are resistant to fenbendazole or have not been eliminated after 2 oral courses, the reptile can be treated with ivermectin at 0.2 mg/kg, PO, once every 7-10 days for 3 treatments. Fenbendazole has a much broader margin of safety than ivermectin and should be used first. Complications, from mild ataxia to paralysis and death, have been associated with the use of ivermectin, although it has been used safely in snakes and lizards at 0.2-0.4 mg/kg. In turtles, ivermectin toxicity (paresis) has been seen at dosages as low as 0.025 mg/kg; therefore, ivermectin is not recommended for use in turtles. Levamisole at 10-50 mg/kg via intracoelomic, IM, or SC injection, and at 200 mg/kg, PO, has been reported to be effective for Rhabdias spp . The margin of safety for levamisole is very narrow, and it should be used with caution.

 

[fresnowitte]

* Ivermectin is administered in near-toxic doses to be effective, and must be repeated often 3 times to be as effective as the far less toxic fenbendazole(panacur). Merck, the maker of ivermectin, does not recommend its use in reptiles. Often fatal or nearly so to small, debilitated reptiles. May cause paralysis, blindness, etc. in larger reptiles. Its use is not recommended for lizards and snakes; it is nearly always fatal when used in turtles and tortoises. Ivermectin toxicity includes paralysis and blindness. This information is from http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

If the maker of Ivermectin doesn't recommend it for reptiles that says something I don't understand why some vets choose to take that risk with our pets. :evil:

I personally had a vet that used this on my beardies an I nearly lost one of my girls... it took me 6 months of critical care with her to bring her back.... this is a medication that was intended for large animals such as hourses not small animals such as beardies.

*As for your not understanding why your beardie isn't growing like you think I first must say I agree with...

I would just like to throw something out there, you said the UVB was the distance the manufacturer recomends? Is that 20". Studies have proved with the reptiSUN10, 6-8" is actually what they need.

This alone would cause the lack of appetite and growth of your beardie.
Basking reptiles need more intense UVB like a minimun of 10% inorder to get that from a Reptisun it must be 6" to 8". Other reptiles it would work at 20" but not basking reptiles. Here is a link to a site that will tell you all you need to know about UVB so do look around but I'm linking you particularly to the page of graphs with the Reptisun 10.0 listed. http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttuberesults.htm

Beardies need a minimal of 30 to 150+ uW/cm2 if I read it correctly...you will notice on the first chart of this page that if you have a Reptisun 10.0 at 14" it is well under putting out 30 uW/cm2 which is the minimum they need which doesn't allow for thriving only existing.

However many other things play a roll in small beardies....
1) Gene make up....what were the size of parents?
2) Where they healthy and parasite free? Or was mother recently treated for anything like while gravid?
3) Previous care
4) Possitions of clutch your baby comes from...for instance is it a baby from a first clutch of the season or farther down the line like clutch 3, 4, 5....? The higher the number of the clutch the smaller the beardie will be.

 

[spyder79]

there is a treatment that can be used to "detox" your beardie before this stuff has the ability to damage their internals but its no garuntee it will work
the treatment is charcoal lavage, and total hydration. over 24 hrs....

 

[Buggsy]

Wow Barbara, you really know your stuff, you can see whey your babies are renowned for being such healthy poopers!!

 

[spyder79]

i think we may have angered and ran off the OP
i certainly hope that her dragon is able to survive this treatment. Though it is unlikely it will last 6 months.

 

[jarett_harrison]

hey there.
I also got a bearide from petco two years ago and he only got up to 11 inches. Then after he was a year old he was dianosed with liver failure. petco sucks IMO

 

[Gail]

OP is still around. She made a new post in the general section. She is trying some different options before using any more meds on her little guy.