9/6/13 10:35pm NEED HELP ASAP!! :(

[WiseWolf]

I think my bearded dragon Lucien had a stroke. I took him to the vet today, after watching him gradually decline for the past week. They agreed with my assessment and told me his prognosis was "poor" and that he was "close to dying." The inside of his mouth is very pale, practically white. He's limp and completely uninterested in anything. In fact, he just lays there and keeps his eyes closed. At the vet, they force-fed him some gravy-like stuff, and he had to be coaxed to swallow it. They seemed to favor euthanasia as an option, but at my reluctance to do so, they offered a treatment: 1 injection of antibiotic in the arm, every day for 10 days, 1 injection of another medicine in the arm every 3 days for 3 doses, and force feedings of 3 mL of the gravy stuff every day. They said he has, "at best, a 20% chance of improving with treatment."

He's lost weight, has "muscle wasting," isn't eating or drinking, barely ever passes stool, his mouth is pale, he's limp, and his heart beats, according to the vet, "sound mushy."

I asked if Lucien was suffering or in pain. The doctor states that she doesn't think he's in pain or suffering, but that "he certainly doesn't feel well." That's evident. I've never seen him like this.

My question is this: I've seen Lucien bounce back from severe illness before. Last year, he had a heart murmur, and after 10 days of antibiotic injections, he was eating again and back to his old self. He's 8 years and 3 months old, now, though. Bearded dragons only live typically 8-10 years, so...do I just need to accept the inevitable, or should I poke him with needles and force food down his throat every day on that 20% chance that he'll snap out of this?

I just don't want his last days to be yucky because I couldn't accept that it's time. On the other side of the coin, I don't want to "give up" on him....

The vet tech said, "Most of the beardies we see here only live to about 4 years old, so you're way beyond that, at least." But I was still hoping to get Lucien to that top end of the range, that magic #10.

Has anyone been through something like this with an older beardie? I need help! And fast! The vet is expecting me to call them tomorrow morning with my decision: treatment on 20% chance he'll improve or euthanasia before he starts to suffer?

 

[SkeptiBee]

Wow, you have my sympathies. Did the vet say if he sustained any kind of mental or physical damage when he had his stoke? It's something you might want to consider in making your decision. If he does recover, his quality of life might be affected from this trauma. If you really feel strongly doing treatment though, go for it. You can at least take comfort that you did your best to help him. I'm sorry I can't offer much else. Sometimes it would be nice to be able to wave wands and have our babies return to health again.

 

[WiseWolf]

The vet said he likely has "swelling on the brain" right now. The other injectable med will be meloxicam, an NSAID (anti-inflammatory). They didn't focus too much on the future, really. They weren't very optimistic.

I do know that he has slowed down. He can't move very well, anymore, and sometimes I'm convinced that half of his body won't obey his commands, anymore, a common side effect of stroke. He might have blindness, because of the eye thing...who knows? He's not really opening his eyes much, now.

Lasting physical damage is something I should take into account. I actually hadn't thought that far, being this upset. He might always have a hard time getting around, now that he's had a stroke. Not to mention possible one-sided blindness.

How old is / are your bearded dragon(s)?

 

[Buddysfam]

I wanted to cry when I read your post... I think you should honestly think of "helping him along", you sound like you love your little guy a lot and I personally think its the best thing to do. What a wonderful life you've given him for 8 years! Good luck and I'm thinking about you and Lucien...

 

[Esther19]

I am sorry you are going through this. Please don't let the vet rush you.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is too bad. He had a stroke? He can't move around very well now?
With cases like this, you just never know what can happen. Lucien could partially recover or he may not. I agree, I wouldn't let the vet rush your decision because remember, reptiles heal slowly. Maybe give him some time to see if he can overcome some of this to a point of having a decent quality of life, unless you feel that he is greatly suffering or in a lot of pain.
How do his eyes look, or does he open them at all?
Is he very responsive to you?
At over 8 years old, that is a pretty good age for him.
There isn't much they can do for a stroke other than just manage the symptoms. Is it difficult to get food into him?
The meloxicam should help with any pain he is feeling. Have you started him on that already?
Is his breathing rhythmic or erratic?

I am sorry you are going through this with him.

Tracie

 

[WiseWolf]

Tracie,

The stroke was about a week ago and he's been slowly deteriorating every day since then. Eating less, drinking less, moving around a lot less, and hiding more. The past 2-3 days he's been eating and drinking nothing that I can see.

Last night, I juiced an orange, then a green apple, then a mixture of broccoli, carrots, and green beans. I drew up 3 mL of each one into separate syringes. He, of course, loved the orange and swallowed it with seemingly enthusiasm (eyes closed). Don't worry, I didn't give him 9 mL of juiced fruits / veggies. He had a total of about 1.5 mL among the three. He liked the orange best, so he had a full 1 mL of that. It might have been his last night and oranges have always been his "cake," his favorite flavor, so I wanted to both see if he would swallow as well as try to give him a treat. You know...he actually lifted his head up high and head it there for minutes on end, just slowly, slowly easing it down again over about 15-20 minutes. That really surprised me.

After watching TV with him laying on my chest like we used to when he was a baby, I laid him on the sand in the front portion of the tank. This morning, I found that he had moved himself into a corner. He's been doing that a lot lately: finding corners to lie in. After yesterday's events, I wasn't sure he'd move at all, so I'm not sure what to think about finding him in the corner this morning. A good sign that he moved at all? Or a sign that he's trying to hide to go pass away?

The vet said they will refuse to swallow when they've decided to die. And they'll actually regurgitate (something beardies aren't supposed to be able to do when they're healthy), if things are already "mostly shut down inside." He hasn't regurgitated...

He keeps his eyes closed. But when they were open, the pupils were different: one a tiny pin prick, the other a large, cat's eye slit. Beardies don't have slit-like pupils when they're healthy, let alone not a matching pair.

I can stare at him for minutes on end and not really see him take a deep breath. It scares me because I think while I'm staring that he's already passed away. I think the vet was rushing me partially because "without any treatment, he'll most definitely pass away quickly." I wonder if I should just keep giving him juiced fruits and veggies for today...ah, but it's Saturday, and the vet will be closed tomorrow. I feel like I have three choices and they want to know today:

- Take Lucien in for euthanasia.
- Buy the gravy food, NSAID, and antibiotic that only has a "20% chance, at best" of helping him recover, and involves poking him in the arm and forcing gravy down his throat each day
- Or feeding him the juiced veggies and fruits, giving him warm baths, and seeing how he holds out until Monday. The vet said he's not suffering or in pain right now...Maybe if I just get some nutrition into him he'll perk up, and help me decide on those force-feedings of gravy and injections.

Don't get me wrong: I'd love to go for broke here and try the treatment. But I've never seen Lucien like this, and I'm really afraid that they're right, that he's slipping away. And if that's the case, I don't want his last days filled with needle pokes and force-feedings. You know?

If he does recover, I can't guarantee myself that he won't have lost the function of half of his body, or that he won't be or isn't already blind in one eye. I don't know. I think Lucien's okay with it, if that makes sense. The vet tech said, "reptiles don't get scared or emotional about death. To them, it's just the next part of the cycle, it's just 'what we do'."

I know bearded dragons aren't fully as intelligent or empathetic as dogs, despite the fact that they can learn their name, and can enjoy being held and petted, but I hope that Lucien knows I love him.

He's not very responsive to me, no. To get food into him, I have to open his mouth and squirt it into his mouth. When I do see him breathe, it's few and far between. Last night, he would go a long time, and then take a series of quick, deep breaths. In a human, we'd call that "agonal breaths," I think...but in a reptile?

Thanks for all the support, guys. I appreciate and look forward to the responses. I'll keep you updated.

WiseWolf (and Lucien)

 

[Lauram63110]

Hi Wolf, sorry to hear about your buddy.

Personally, I'd go for your option #3. Instead of poking him with needles and force feeding, I think I'd just give him the juices he seems to like now.Or, if you were going to feed him the gravy food, could you mix it with his favorite orange juice? That might be a way to get the nutrition into him in a way that he might not mind so much. If he really is on his way out, I'd rather know that he enjoyed his orange juice up to the end than think about poking him with needles and force feeding him. But that is just me.

The warm baths sound pretty good too, just be sure to support him in the bath so he doesn't slip under the water and drown.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure he knows you love him. My girl can be dark brown and asleep in her pen, but if I pick her up and hold her for awhile, she turns all peachy colored. Mind you, she will not have even opened her eyes or woke up, but the sleeping dragon will have gone from brown to yellow/peach colored. They KNOW things. Even if they are fast asleep, they know, and I think Lucien knows who loves and cares for him . (((hugs ))) to you

 

[WiseWolf]

Thanks, Laura,

It really actually helps to read your post. I just want him to know I love him, and I'm glad from reading your post, to find out that on some level, he does know. He knew when he was a baby. If someone else was holding him, and I started talking, he would turn himself and jump back to me. Literally jump! So, he knew back then. I just hope he knows now, too.

I sort of went with option 3. He's been getting juiced veggies and fruits, but mostly his favorite: the orange. I did give him 0.5 mL of a pre-made orange juice from a carton last night, which was fortified with Calcium, along with 1 mL of the broccoli/carrot/green bean juice. He didn't seem to like it quite as much as the fresh juiced California orange. I tasted some of the fresh juiced, as well, and it is noticeably more wonderful.

He seems to be taking less fluids and seems to be visibly dehydrating. He is very sunken in, in many places. It's disturbing to see, but if he doesn't want more fluids, I don't want to force more on him. I give him what he wants, twice a day, and we spend time with me just holding him. He seems most comfortable at those times.

Looking back, even if I had bought the gravy, the NSAID, and the antibiotic to start 3 days ago, I'm not sure it would have made a difference. He's always been a fighter, coming back from the worst situations, but...I guess sometimes, it's just time. I really hate to admit that, because he's been my companion for 8 years and 3 months, and I don't really want to let him go, but I'd rather him be comfortable and feel loved and respected in his last days than poke him and force feed him, kind of going against the choice he's made. Because they do decide to die, dragons. They fight for life when they still want it, and accept death when they're ready for that. So I was told by the vet, anyway. But I'm a nurse, and I've seen that people do that, too, so it makes sense.

The vet also said it's common after a stroke to have a bearded dragon go into kidney failure, which then leads to systemic shut down. The vet explained it's a gradual system-by-system process, that isn't painful or full of suffering. She stated that, "Their brains just get a little foggy as the kidneys shut down and they just sort of gradually fall asleep." I may call to see if I can have him looked at today by "the reptile vet," but if not, I think we're just going to keep going with this option: warm baths, orange juice twice a day, and cuddle time. Unless he changes. I don't want him to suffer. But, for now, he seems peaceful and sleepy.

If anyone has any more helpful tidbits or input, I still always appreciate it. And thanks for the support during this difficult time. I try not to cry while I'm holding him, because I know he can sense my distress, and I just want him to feel peace, happiness, and love.

Thanks again, everyone.

WiseWolf (and Lucien)

 

[AZPumpMan]

This is so terribly sad. I'm sorry you have to go through this. I've only had my beardie for 2 months and She already tugs on my heart strings, I can't even imagine how you feel. Since I'm no expert I can't really offer advice, but you have my prayers for your little Lucien.

-Aaron