4 Year Old Beardie - Brumation?

[GonzoRy]

Hello everyone,
This is my first ever post on this website so first I'll introduce myself and my beardie.
My name is Ryan and my beardie's name is Gonzo. I've had him since he was a baby and he is 4 years old.

His tank has a 75 watt heat lamp, 10.0 UVB light, the substrate in his tank is sand (not calci-sand, just normal sand). The temperature in his tank during the day is 80-90 and obviously a little cooler at the other end of the tank and drops to 60 or around that at night when the lights are off. Gonzo has never had a problem in his tank as far as I'm aware until recently.

On Sunday night I was sitting in my room (where his tank is also situated) and he had just passed a feces and in typical Gonzo style was running around his tank like a lunatic. He always does this after passing waste, he also goes to the back of the tank, stands on his back legs and presses his body against the tank wall. Whenever I was going over to clean the tank out he fell to the side and started digging his head into the sand with his mouth wide open, therefore as he was digging the sand was going into his mouth. I was able to remove some of the sand from his mouth but I am concerned about just how much he has taken in. Obviously I lifted him in a second therefore not giving him too much of a chance to take in a lot. After taking the sand out of his mouth he started to swallow whatever was in his mouth. I thought at first he took a seizure, but I'm honestly not sure what went on. Have you ever experienced anything like this?

Since then he has stayed completely still and his breathing is very unnoticeable therefore I have thought he was dead about 3 times, then he would open his mouth for 2 seconds and close it again. He has been like this since Sunday night, not moving and only opening his mouth every minute or two. He hasn't eaten but I have bathed him twice since to make sure he is hydrated. Whenever I touch his feet and hands he jerks them back therefore I know he can feel me. I took him to the vets and they gave him an x-ray which they said showed nothing abnormal and that there wasn't even any lumps of substrate in his body (as far as they know from the x-ray), they gave him a steroid injection and a fluid injection to prevent dehydration and the steroids were to reduce any inflammation that his brain may be experiencing. They said there was no damage or separation of the spine therefore he can move (even though his isn't). Any ideas what it could be?

Since then I have placed him in the tank and had the lights on during the day as per usual. He hasn't moved or eaten and his beard often goes as black as a boot. Whenever I lift him out the blackness fades completely and he looks fine except for having his eyes closed and being completely limp. He can't hold his head up and if I was to hold him without touching or holding his head it would fall to the side. He is extremely lethargic and this is what worries me most. The vet said that if there was no improvement 24 hours after the injections (which has now passed and he is no different) that I was to bring him back and put him to sleep. Last night however, I searched the term "Bearded dragon lethargic" and an article about Brumation came up. It sounds completely like what Gonzo is doing and would explain why he is lethargic and whatnot however, it would not explain why he nose dived into the sand with his mouth open and dug into it.

Sorry for the super long post, I am just really worried about his state and what is going on as this is the first time this has ever happened. If anyone can be of any help I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks,
Ryan.

 

[AHBD]

Hi Ryan....wow, that sounds pretty worrisome, and it's definitely related to his sand " episode", not brumation. He may have breathed in [ aspirated ] some sand, so watch to see if he has trouble breathing. A limp dragon with a black beard is usually very serious. Hopefully he will get through this. First off, get rid of the sand and put down reptile carpet or newspaper. Many people use tile, but that will take you awhile to get it together, and he's sick + needs to rest right now with little disturbance. Another thing, raise the temp. on the basking spot top 100 degrees, for which you might try a 100 watt bulb . 80-90 is not high enough, and you also want to keep his night temps. up to about 80 since he is ill. For night heat you need a ceramic heat emitter, and you must be sure that your light fixture is a ceramic one. I hope he pulls through for you !

 

[GonzoRy]

Hi Ryan....wow, that sounds pretty worrisome, and it's definitely related to his sand " episode", not brumation. He may have breathed in [ aspirated ] some sand, so watch to see if he has trouble breathing. A limp dragon with a black beard is usually very serious. Hopefully he will get through this. First off, get rid of the sand and put down reptile carpet or newspaper. Many people use tile, but that will take you awhile to get it together, and he's sick + needs to rest right now with little disturbance. Another thing, raise the temp. on the basking spot top 100 degrees, for which you might try a 100 watt bulb . 80-90 is not high enough, and you also want to keep his night temps. up to about 80 since he is ill.

IfFor night heat you need a ceramic heat emitter, and you must be sure that your light fixture is a ceramic one. I hope he pulls through for you !

Hey, so I went out and bought a 100 watt day light and a 100 watt infrared night light because the man in the shop said there was a lot more to a CHE such as a thermostat which I dont have. He didnt have all the equipment therefore he gave me a infrared bulb. His tank is sitting at 80 and it is currently night time. Hi beard is still very black and he is now lying with his mouth gapping open. He seems to be getting worse.

I honestly am starting to think it's a respiratory infection as he has a bit of mucus build up in his mouth and tthroat and is also doing the coughing movement. I'm taking to the vets in the morning in a hope they. will gave an antibiotic course that I can give him. At this point I'm really trying my hardest to keep him alive but if things get worse I may have to put him down.

 

[tf2185]

The nighttime light you bought, is it a red or blue one? The reason I am asking is because the nighttime bulbs sold in stores that are colored, disturb a dragons sleeping. That's why the CHE is better. I've never had to hook mine up to a thermorstat or anything, just a regular light fixture. My room stays pretty cold though and with the CHE it stays about 75-80 in their tanks. If you suspect a RI, I would take him to the vet. From my experience they are pretty bad. One thing I would suggest is try keeping his heat bumped upat nighttime to somewhere around 80ish, someone might recommend more. This will help him breath easier at nighttime.

 

[GonzoRy]

The nighttime light you bought, is it a red or blue one? The reason I am asking is because the nighttime bulbs sold in stores that are colored, disturb a dragons sleeping. That's why the CHE is better. I've never had to hook mine up to a thermorstat or anything, just a regular light fixture. My room stays pretty cold though and with the CHE it stays about 75-80 in their tanks. If you suspect a RI, I wouldtake him to the vet. From my experience they are pretty bad. One thing I would suggest is try keeping his heat bumped upat nighttime to somewhere around 80ish, someone might recommend more. This will help him breath easier at nighttime.

It's a red one. The guy at the store told me that beardies dont see the colour red and it wont bother his sleeping. Did he lie to me? I wonder why he told me about needing a stat, if I known I wouldnt need one I would have bought the CHE. The temperature is ccurrently sitting just over 80, so hopefully he makes it through the night. I really hope he does because I would really like him to have a course of antibiotics.

 

[Aboyle143]

Hi Ryan,
I'm Amber, & also a newbie to 'joining' this site. We've had our (2nd) BD for 3 months now, & he was a replacement for one we got that died during the 2 week guarantee period from a chain pet store.
I believe the 1st one died of impaction, as we bought a 'starter kit' specifically for a BD that came w/sand. No where in the instructions, did it say NOT to use sand with a baby/juvenile.
I really hope Gonzo can overcome whatever seems to be the issue.
So, were you not using ANY lights @ night until your previous post? I know you should always use something, & my preference is the red, night basking light (as well as is some of my friends' choices). I have found tons of great info on this site, unfortunately, didn't find this site until after our tragedy, including, "Never to use sand @ all"! I found that out by asking a question about when I could put the sand back in, (we got the Repti-Carpet after poor Zach's death, & reading that you shouldn't use sand w/juvies). Repti-Carpet is a pain to clean between viv cleanings, so I'm going to get another, to switch out week to week. Some say they use tile, others say non-stick shelf liner,,,, we'll find what's best for us. One main problem w/ the carpet, is that the crickets can 'hide' under it, so I've been using clear packing tape to tape the sides.
Apparently, (according to an article/post on this site) even adults can eat the sand, whether by accident or not, & become impacted.
Our BD is my 8 yr old son's 1st pet, as he's allergic to anything w/hair, fur, or feathers! The whole family has fallen in love with Misun, & we'd rather be safe than sorry!
If you suspect RI, I would certainly not take him back to the vet that just wants to put him down! You're right, maybe a course of antibiotics will clear him up,,,, but I will admit, you have more experience than I.
Which brings me to a question for you:
When you say Gonzo runs around like a lunatic, does he do so @ night, or just after the BM? We have noticed that when the day lights go off, & the night light (red) comes on, Misun will run around all crazy, scratch @ the glass, wave, do the head bob, etc. I only notice this @ the night time. But I don't stare @ him all day, either, although sometimes I'd like to! I think the red light is ok for him. everything I've read, (& I tried to do ALL my homework before taking on the responsibility), says they need a heat source @ night, & recommend the red bulbs.
I really hope he gets better, (& you can answer my question when you have some time, you've got a lot going on right now) and the vet will be able to help him. Are you taking him to a vet that specializes in reptilian care? If not, try calling a store ANYWHERE in your town that only sells exotics, & they should be able to recommend someone.
Thanks,
Amber
P.S. You may email me direct later if you wish @ [email protected]
Thx, AB

 

[GonzoRy]

Hey Amber,
I never had a problem with using sand as I have kept Gonzo on it since he was a juvenile and hr never had any addiction or want to lick the sand. Thats not to say he didnt do it, he just done it very rarely. Therefore since he seems to have no problems with it. The xray showed that he had no impaction which was good.

I wasnt using any night lights at all, which for four years never been a problem and I was never told it a necessity. The temperature drops to 60-65 at night which by some books and the vets isn't a problem. However during the winter months he slows down a great deal which I never considered a problem either.

As far as taking him back to the vets; I agree with you, I am somewhat reluctant because they did tell me it would be best to put him down which for me, just isn't the first option right now. That being said, I do feel they will be willing to help, as ive never had a problem getting them to prescribe medication for my other pets.

Gonzo would also run around after doing a BM, I think it was because he felt lighter and also because he doesnt like the smell of it haha! He too would scratch the glass, headbob and wave. Even after the poo has been removed. At night he would always spend 5-10 minutes scratching to find a spot to nest down for the night. It's completely normal.

The vets dont specialise in reptiles but they do have some knowledge on them. Which is betterthan nothing. There are specialist vets anhour away which I'm not willing to travel at the moment considering his current state.

Thanks - Ryan.

 

[diamc]

Hello Ryan, I'm sorry about what is going on with Gonzo, it must have been a devastating thing to watch. Had he been acting completely normal before this happened or could he have possible aspirated on some water before this episode? It sounds like he may have aspirated some sand into his lungs so it's possible that he has pneumonia. Did they do a chest xray? I hope the vet will recommend antibiotics before trying to persuade you into putting him down.

As others have mentioned, it would be a good idea to keep his tank temps about 80 to help his immune system. It's true that you don't need a thermostat for a CHE, I have been using them for yrs, but you do need a hood with a ceramic top because they do get very hot. In the meantime and since you have the red bulb now, you can use that but be sure to block the light from him by either putting a loose blanket over him or putting his back to the light as red will indeed disturb their sleep and he needs lots of rest in the state he is in now. It would also be a good idea to put his head lower than the rest of his body in case any sand or mucous needs to drain out so put a towel or small blanket under the rest of his body so that his head remains lower. Would also be a good idea NOT to have the bulb directly over him since it is 100 watts but put it to the side instead.

Would you be able to fill us in on the brand & type of UVB you're using, is it a coil, compact or strip fluorescent bulb? Also, what type of thermometer are you using?

It is typical behavior for beardies to glass dance, etc after they have a bowel movement because they want to get away from it as far as they can and prefer to be out of the tank while you're cleaning it up and it's airing out. I have had beardies for over 10 yrs and always see this behavior if they have pooped in their tanks.

Good luck with the vet appt, you are the one to make the final decision so if you prefer to try a round of antibiotics before a decision is made, that should be your choice and the vet should listen to you. I sure hope Gonzo can get better. Please make sure that the vet DOESN'T give him a Ivermectin injection as that can have very serious side effects on reptiles and should only be used on livestock, some vets don't realize that. Please be sure to keep us updated.

Amber, your beardie may be running around after you turn the red nightlight on because he wants total darkness. Beardies actually prefer it completely dark at night so they can scratch a little and then settle down. Your beardie may be telling you in the only way that he can that he doesn't like the red light and perhaps it is even a little too hot for him as they do need it cooler at night also.

 

[GonzoRy]

Many thanks for your reply and help on this matter diamc,
I have just done as you have instructed; placing him yo the side of the light, with his back to it and with his head at a little tilt downwards. He was absolutely normal before this all started, he was craving attention. Had a bowel movement and carried on running around. It was so devastating and shocking to watch him fall into the sand.

The temperature is definitely in the 80s and I have blocked out the light by placing the wood furniture in his tanks in such a way that he is in the shadows of it which will hopefully mean a more restful sleep.

The UVB light in his tank is made by reptiglo (or something along those lines) it is 10.0 and is a strip fluorescent tube. The thermometer is stuck to the back wall and is a little round dial.

Can you tell me what lvermectin is used for? He was given a steroid and fluid injection but he was taken into a separate room where I wasnt present as they gave him the injections. The xray was a full body one and showed nothing, she also grabbed her stethoscope so I assume she also listened to his chest and breathing.

At the moment he doesnt look well at all, he has his mouth open a considerable bit, I assume it's to aid with breathing however I am not ttotally sure. His beard is still black and his eyes are a little puffy. Looking at him right now you would think he's dead, and as I write this I am even unsure myself as he gives very little indication of being alive. I will leave the light ontonight and see how he copes, hopefully he can survive long enough for the antibiotics.

Many thanks - Ryan.

 

[AHBD]

I'm so sorry that he is in such condition Ryan....no one wants to see their pet like that,I really feel for you.

 

[diamc]

Ivermectin is an antibiotic and is sometimes used to treat parasites. I found this info for you.

Ivermectin is administered in near-toxic doses to be effective, and must be repeated often 3 times to be as effective as the far less toxic fenbendazole. Merck, the maker of ivermectin, does not recommend its use in reptiles. Often fatal or nearly so to small, debilitated reptiles. May cause paralysis, blindness, etc. in larger reptiles. Its use is not recommended for lizards and snakes; it is nearly always fatal when used in turtles and tortoises. Ivermectin toxicity includes paralysis and blindness.

† From "Drug Dosage and Chemotherapeutics", by Lara Maxwell, DVM, in Biology, Husbandry and Medicine of the Green Iguana, E.R. Jacobson, DVM, ed.

That's good that you figured out a way to block the light and have his head tilting downward. Sometimes when they are not feeling well, human contact and stroking them helps. I so hope he can get through this and improve, the poor thing. I know how hard it is to see him like this. Since he is now coughing and showing other symptoms of upper respiratory signs, perhaps the vet will do another chest xray to see if there is a build up of fluid. Make sure you don't mist his tank at all, you want to keep the humidity level down. I wonder if he could have had a seizure when he fell to the side and that's why he pushed his face into the sand like that. I'm sorry, just trying to help you figure out what caused it from the beginning.

Had you recently purchased the Repti-Glo bulb or had you been using that for a while? Any idea what the distance is of the UVB? Do you have a temperature gun or digital probe thermometer on hand? Unfortunately, the round dial thermometers don't really give accurate readings so I don't know if it would be a good idea to use the 100 watt basking bulb during the day.

Will be thinking about both of you, hope he can find the strength to make it to the vets with you tomorrow.

 

[Esther19]

Hang in there, Gonzo! We're all pulling for you!

 

[snazzyglasses]

Everyone here is pulling for you too!! <3
(Awesome advice so far by the way. I love this site )

 

[GonzoRy]

Thanks for the help on the type of antibiotics diamc, I really regret to say that it is with great sadness that your information was not needed in the end. He didn't make it through the night,and died peacefully as if he was asleep. I have woken only ten minutes ago and studied him in that time and he has not took a breath, coughed or done anything remotely positive. I do believe, like you said, that he took something like a seizure although we will never totally know. My words when it was happening were, "I think he's taking a stroke." So there was obviously something sinister happening.

I also want to thank everyone who sent in their well wishes and I'm sure Gonzo knew that people were pulling for him. He was fighting this since Sunday night and done well to get this far with very little to no medical intervention other than the steroids and fluid that seemed to be useless. I really would have liked to try the antibiotics but the little guy was always very stubborn and had to have things his own way! That is and was the Gonzo I always knew!

I'm attaching (I hope it works) a picture of Gonzo in his better days just for everyone to be able to think of him in better light instead of the recent horrible one.

Again, many thanks to everyone for their advice and support, it really has meant a lot!

https://picasaweb.google.com/115071136349102575572/PicturesOfGonzoRIP141112

 

[AHBD]

I'm so sorry Ryan.....I didn't think he would make it, but we always want to hope that there's just a shred of a chance. He was such a beautiful dragon, what can anyone say except how sorry that you've lost your boy. All my saddest sympathy to you.