4 month old showing signs of brumation?

[bluesoda025]

My dragon, who's 4 months old has been showing signs of brumation for the past couple of weeks. She just naps most of the day in this one corner of her tank. Sometimes she will be kind of awake with a sleepy look on her face. She will usually eat everyday when I try feeding her. It's just that her behaviour sounds exactly like she's going into brumation. Anyways, she did not seem to want to eat many crickets at all -- I was feeding her those up until a week ago, and she has been eating less and less of those.

For the past week, I've been feeding her phoenix worms which she seems to love and eats around 20 or 20 something of them per day. I'm running low on those now.. I only purchased 200 and they are just too expensive for the long run. :? But at the same time, I'm also raising a colony of silkworms, and the first batch should be ready to use for feeding soon.

There are a few things that I find odd about this behaviour though. How can such a young dragon be going into brumation already? I find that quite unusual. However, she does seem very healthy otherwise.. she is just really, really sleepy. And since she has been eating less, she poos about every other day or every 3 days. After eating a meal, she does bask, which is good. If she is in fact going into brumation, will this slowdown in eating affect her growth in any way? Would that be slowed down too?

As for my setup, I don't see any problems with it, except for the basking site being a few degrees lower than it should be. But I changed the position of my lights yesterday and now the basking temps are around 102 F, so that is better than before (95-100F). The UVB is a brand new Mega-ray 100W.. Also have a regular 100W bulb beside it for extra heat. I am not using loose substrates. She is on shelf liner, so there should not be any chance of impaction.

 

[spurlee01]

4 months is too young for brumation, but some do slow down this early. What are you using to measure temps with? A 100 watt Megaray plus a 100 watt bulb seems like a lot. What size tank are you using? How big is your beardie?

 

[bluesoda025]

I have used a digital thermometer with a probe, as well as a temp gun to measure the temps, so it should be very accurate. The tank is a 40 gal breeder.. and yeah, I had to add the 100 W bulb, because a 60 W bulb was barely raising the temps, and the MVB alone would not give high enough temps. Weird, I know, but maybe it's because the area where the tank is in is near my window, which may be a bit cooler in general. Also, my house isn't that warm during the day when no one is home (thermostat is only set at 65 F then). Could these cooler temperatures be what's putting her into brumation? I hadn't been able to get her basking temps up to where they should be, for the first 3-4 weeks that I've had her, until only yesterday.. They were always at 95-100 F before.
I really actually don't know how big my beardie is. When she was almost 3 months old, the breeder said she was around 9-10 inches. Now she is 4 months old and from my pictures, she definitely looks like she has grown a little. I would say maybe she's grown about an inch? I'll try to measure when I go home.

 

[bluesoda025]

Okay, yeah she is about 11-12 inches. She seems to be in an even deeper brumation state now. Yesterday she ate even less phoenix worms and she basically slept the whole day. Even when I took her out, she just went right back to sleep on my hand. Is this normal for a 4 month old dragon... and could it be possible that my not-cool-enough basking spot put her into brumation? However, I changed the setup on Sunday and it is warmer now.. but she doesn't seem to have "discovered" that yet. Is it possible that she'll come out of brumation once she's noticed the warmer temps? I am just worried that this will affect her growth, since she's not eating as much, etc.

 

[spurlee01]

I really don't feel like she is brumating. I'm going to have someone else come look at this thread to see if I'm missing something. If you can get a poop sample, I would take it to the vet to check for parasites.

 

[diamc]

Hi, Sara asked if I would check in here. I have a beardie almost 5 mo old and believe me, 4 mo is WAY to young to be even considering brumation. Your beardie should be eating lots and also be very active. Something just isn't right.

What is the distance of the Megaray to the basking spot? When you take your temps with the probe, are you laying the probe so that it is resting on (actually touching) the basking log and waiting about 45 min before getting the final readings? In a 40 gallon tank with a 100 watt Megaray, you certainly shouldn't need to use a 100 watt bulb alongside it. I have a 100 watt SB Megaray in a 55 gallon with it 14" from the basking spot and get a basking temp of about 104. I use a 40 watt household lightbulb on the cool side to get a temp of about 80 on that side. You also mentioned that you use a temp gun, how close to the basking spot are you holding the gun to get a reading?

Have you been keeping your baby well hydrated? How often are you bathing her? Are you using calcium WITHOUT D3 since you have a MVB? How many days are you dusting with calcium & vitamins?

Please answer the questions and as Sara suggested, it would also be a good idea to take a poop sample to be checked for parasites. I also wanted to mention that she should be pooping either one large poop a day or twice a day. Would it be possible to post a picture of her in her tank? Also, what greens are you feeding her?

 

[bluesoda025]

The Megaray is about 12-13" from the basking spot. And yes, when I use the probe it is laying on the basking spot, just like how she would be basking; I have it there for at least 30-40 mins. I do not know why the temps just aren't high enough with the 100W MVB; I find that odd myself. Perhaps the overall temperature of my room is just too cool in the winter, because the tank is near the window. But the temperatures in my room should be at least 18 C during the day. When I use the temp gun, I point it about 4-5" from the basking spot. I used the temp gun again just now, and it's actually only 98 F on the log, and 101 F on some parts of the rock. :/ I just really don't get why it's so hard for me to get the temps high enough..

She gets baths at least 2-3 times a week. When she was shedding, she had a bath at least every other day, which was 2 weeks ago. So she should be well hydrated.

As for the supplements, yes I'm using calcium w/o D3. She gets her herptivite 5 times a week, and her calcium everyday. She used to poo everyday, when she was still active and eating more. Now she poos about every 3-4 days. As for the greens, I've been giving her a variety, depending on what's available at the grocery store. I've given collard greens, acorn squash, romaine lettuce, bok choy, celery, carrots, kiwi, grapes... She is mostly only interested in the dark leafy greens though.

I took these pictures just now. She is ALWAYS sleeping in the corner under her hammock most of the time. She's only on the basking spot because I put her there earlier so she would digest the phoenix worms she ate today, although I've observed 2-3 days ago that she does bask after she's eaten a meal. Yesterday and today, she has been even sleepier though, and I haven't really seen her bask but sometimes she sleeps right beside the rock, near the hammock corner:

Bath time a few days ago:

 

[spurlee01]

She's a very beautiful girl. You may want to start considering a vet visit, because these signs are not typical in a 4 month old. The youngest I have seen brumate is 8 months and near full-grown.

 

[zebraflavencs]

Wow.... Let's go back to the calcium/vitamin schedule...
Just how much are you supplementing daily ?
Calcium 7 days a week is a bit much... so is vitamins 5 days a week...
Back off on the calcium to 5 days a week, the vitamins the other two days.
Head to the vet, for a checkup and fecal.

Those temps... is the enclosure topped with a screen by chance ? I personally use Megas, with those distances, and my enclosures are closer to 100 gals or over, but they are totally enclosed in hard woods. I get temps in the 103-105's normally, and my house is cool...currently I have a house temp of 68* but my vivs are showing the 103-104-99(for brumating adult)-106(8 month old).

Interesting...
Janie

 

[bluesoda025]

Okay, what I'll do is: calcium on weekdays, herptivite on weekends. I was just following the beautiful dragons guidelines for how often to supplement, actually. These things are so confusing and differ so much among different sources.. :? Is there any way of telling if they're getting too much or too little of the supplements?

Yeah, the enclosure has a screen on top; should I take it off? Can it actually "block" off enough heat that it makes a notable difference? I am thinking that maybe I don't even need the screen; it makes it a pain when I want to access things inside the tank anyways.

And yeah, I want to take her to the vet for a fecal test. How do those usually work; do they need to give her a check up before it? The other thing is, she only poos every few days now, so collecting one is more tricky, and I'm not sure if something that's a few days old would be helpful.

 

[spurlee01]

If they have too much calcium, their urates are hard and yellow. Every vet has a different policy about running fecals without a check-up. Fecal+ check-up is only $35 at my vet. They told me that poops still need to be moist. The screen doesn't block heat, persay, but it does let the heat out.

 

[diamc]

I agree with the others that the calcium and vitamin schedule you were using was too much for her. Phoenix worms contain a LOT of calcium so when feeding those you don't need to dust with the calcium then. So, when you're using the crickets, dust with the calcium 5 days a wk but only 1 feeding a day and with vitamins the other 2 days a wk but only 1 feeding a day. What brand supplements are you using? I also think it would be a good idea to try to get her to drink oral fluids to help flush her system out of any overabundance of supplements. Increasing her baths would also help and should cause her to poop more often. Too much calcium and vitamins could cause lethargic behavior as well as hard urates making it harder for her to poop.

Would it be possible to move the MVB way over on the right side of the tank rather than having it toward the middle? Getting another reading with the digital after about 45 min to an hr would also be a good idea. With the temp gun, according to Bob from reptileuv, the gun should be 2" from the area you're checking so getting another reading at that distance would also be a good idea. Do you have any idea what the cool side temp is? It should be 78 to 82 so once you move the heat bulbs way over to the right side, get a reading on the bottom of the opposite side of the tank and if it is lower than the 78 to 82, then you can add a lower wattage household bulb on that side to bring those temps up which will help with the basking temp and also give more light on the cool side.

You should be able to get good temps with the screen in place so you shouldn't need to remove it. I also have my tank next to a window and with the same wattage Megaray, get a basking temp of about 104 at a distance of 14", I also use a 40 watt household bulb on the cool side giving me a temp there of about 80. You could also put a towel over part of the screen to help hold the heat in but make sure the towel isn't touching any lights of course.

A regular vet can do a fecal check for you and you shouldn't need to take her unless the vet office requires it. Something is definitely going on with her, she should be wanting to eat much more & be much more active.

Please let us know what you get for new temps so that we can try to help you further. A phone call or email to Bob from reptileuv would be a good idea to get his opinion as to why the temps are so low. Those bulbs throw out LOTS of heat so in that size tank you really shouldn't be needing a 100 watt bulb alongside it.

 

[bluesoda025]

The problem is that I'm never around when she poos since I'm at work, augh. When I come home, it's usually completely dried up already, or mostly dried. So it's hard to check the urates properly. Today, she did poo, so that is good. She shouldn't have been getting many supplements for the past two weeks anyways, because she's been sleeping most of the time and she doesn't eat that much, thus doesn't get that much supplements. I will try to give her more fluids and baths though. What's a good way of giving her fluids orally? She doesn't drink from her water dish, and she's so sleepy that when I pick her up she just sleeps through it.

I could move the MVB more to the right. But anyways, earlier I did try taking the screen lid off, and I actually got higher basking temps with the digital thermometer. It was able to get a max reading of 104.5 F, so that is definitely better. The cool side is about 75 F. I think I will use the towel idea and cover it over the cool side to keep in some heat. Will also try moving the MVB more to the right. But one problem I might have with that is, if moving the MVB causes the cool side's temps to get too low, I don't have another means of suspending a lamp over that side, and I don't want to use the screen for now since I'm getting better temps without it.

Hopefully, this weekend I'm able to get a fecal test done for her. The problem is, there're really only two vets in my area who actually treat reptiles. The closest one sounds like he's the type of vet who really wants to suck all the cash out of you, and will do several unnecessary tests on your pets. I really hate to have to go to a vet like that. I've been in their facilities and I wasn't that impressed with their staff either. The other one, I could not find any reviews of, nor have I been in their facilities, but they are not open on Sundays which is a pain. I will phone in both of them tomorrow though.

 

[bluesoda025]

Okay, I called into one of the vet clinics. It's about $30 for a stool test, but that's only for a floatation. Is that what I should get or another kind of test..? I only read up on it briefly, but it sounds like a floatation only screens whether parasites are present or not, not how many. What's the term for the test that I want to get? And I feel stupid for asking this, but how are you usually supposed to "collect" the stools for the test. I don't even know if they're supposed to give me some kind of "collection kit" or whether I just bring the sample to them.

 

[spurlee01]

Water can be offered with an eye dropper, just drip it on her nose.
I believe the choices are flotation or diuretic. The float is what I have done for all of my animals. The vet told my boyfriend that the diuretic screens for more exotic parasites and that a float would be fine. I have not researched this, just going by what I've been told. At his vet, floats are around $15 and diuretics are $30+ so your vet may charge an arm and a leg for the diuretic. I just pic of the poop with a paper towel and stick it in a ziplock then stick that in another ziplock then put it all in a kroger bag. But that may be overkill.