Hey everyone! For those following this thread, I want to say a few things before telling about the vet visit.
First off, for those just here for my FINAL review on Tylan as a treatment, I would say....yes it CAN work, however, I wouldn't recommend it for every situation. I think if your dragon is perfectly healthy otherwise, it could be worth a shot. That being said, my vet did have something to say about nebulizing Tylan. He said to BE CAREFUL of it as in some beardies it CAN irritate the lung tissue. I'm assuming he meant it can be almost like an allergic reaction that can occur in some dragons and possibly exacerbate a tough Respiratory Infection or one that might be too bad off for such a treatment. He did not totally discredit it, he just simply warned me that it CAN cause irritation sometimes. SO......my thoughts, if it's mild and just beginning and they are healthy otherwise, sure give it shot. But if it isn't working after a few weeks or gets worse PLEASE GO TO THE VET! DON'T WAIT!!
Secondly, I AM A HUGE FOOL!!
I feel like a terrible owner! And here's why:
(Fair warning this is a LOOOONG post)
To start, I got nearly every question except her eye issue answered. (When I asked about the eye he looked at it really well and said it for sure was not right and that it almost looked like a corneal collapse. When I asked what that meant for her, he honestly said "I don't know....I've never seen it before. I don't know what has caused this. I applaud his honesty, and am glad he didn't just give me some made/BS answer, but I'm not too thrilled that we still don't know what is going on there. Maybe we can find out later, since it doesn't seem to be as pressing of an issue as everything else right now.)
The vet was SHOOK by her condition. The RI had gotten sooo bad in a matter of days that by the time she was seen she was limp, breathing so heavily and just terrible all around.
The first thing he did was ask me about what was going on, I explained everything from start to finish as he examined her. He said the RI was so bad he worried about pneumonia. But before we got fully into that, he had something else to say.....he said "I think she may be egg bound. I want to do an ultrasound. Has she every laid before?" I said no, not once, but definitely please check! And I too worry about pneumonia, so I was hoping to get an xray to be 1000% sure. He said yes, I'll get everything set up. He also made comments hoping we could get her through the RI because she was soooo bad. That alone had me worried she wouldn't recover from even the RI and I texted my fiance who was at work and we discussed that if she was incurable that we may have to euthanize as it would be better than making her suffocate to death. I agreed that, if it came down to it, yes of course I don't want her to pass away in any horrific manner. But I told him if that was the case he would need to be present with me to say goodbye also. (We work at the same office so getting time off together is hard, but he HAD to be there if we were told bad news and had to put her down.) I said, okay, we've figured that out, but I'm obviously going to see what the vet says about her chances and at least try whatever he recommends first before jumping to that thought! He agreed and I sat in silence crying at how terrible a shape she was in, how I should've taken her in long ago, demanded treatment whether they saw it anything wrong or not, and thinking about how we may have to euthanize.
So, he comes back with her, grabs his laptop to show me the xray and has the ultrasound in hand. I immediately see the ultrasound as it was sitting on the table, and I could not believe what I saw!
YOU GUYS!! SHE IS EGG BOUND!!
He says "She's pregnant!!" My firs thought when he said that I was like "How could she be pregnant? She's never been with a male." Well, turns out he just meant she had infertile eggs. I was like thinking "Dude, you said she was pregnant and I took that to mean FERTILE eggs. So I'm sitting there for all of 10 seconds questioning everything I thought I knew about bearded dragons. Like, can they reproduce without a male?? I have never read that they were asexual...." He just used a weird term to say she had eggs.
ANYWAYS, he said he was concerned about them because in between a few eggs he saw fluid, which is NOT GOOD. He said he wants her to try and pass them herself since I have never given her a lay box to try as I had no idea she even had them. He wants to try that first before considering surgery in her current condition. He said if we tried it right now she would likely not make it and that the anesthesia would kill her because her lungs would stop working. He also said she would have about a 15% chance of survival, but I'm not sure if he meant now or even after the RI was clear. He mentioned her age too, so I'm thinking he may have meant in general it's a 15% chance. I hope not though. So, then he pulled up the xray and he showed me her lungs and said they are supposed to be black space there, well, no there wasn't. It was white. He also showed me she had poo higher up in her intestines. He asked about her pooping and I said she had actually been pooping a lot recently and he said she might be having issues passing that because of the eggs. Next we showed me the eye area and both sides looked the exact same, so nothing off looking on the xray. Then he directed my attention to an enlarged area on her left side. He said that COULD just be her lungs, but because they aren't clear he can't be sure it isn't an enlarged liver. So that's something we'll recheck later on, but for now nothing definitive. Finally, he pointed out a curve forming in her spine. I gasped and asked is that way she has a hump when she is walking?! He said yes, it's most likely due to her body taking calcium from her bones to go to her eggs. He also showed me some other spots on her legs and such that looked like they were losing calcium/density from the eggs and said that is probably why she walking funny and flipping over because she isn't able to properly support herself.
After the run down of all of her issues, I asked about her tail. He straight up said "That's the least of our concern. I'm not worried about it." So, the tail is fine and he had zero cares about it, nor did he even ask how it may have happened or anything. He asked nothing about it because it was basically a non-issue at this point and thinks it will be fine. It's mostly healed up, so we'll see if the bone gets healed over.
In the end, he prescribed oral baytril (.4ml every day for 10 days) and a liquid calcium (.5ml twice a day for 14 days) and I asked about making a slurry of repashy instead of feeding solids and he said yes to do that so that it will pass easier while we try to get the eggs out. He said to set her up a lay box and seeing if she can pass it in a week. When I asked more about how he recommends to do a lay box he said "Well, I'm not well versed on them, so I usually tell people to look online and see what breeders do since they do it all of the time they will have the best advice." I really do love that he's honest about not fully knowing things instead of trying to sound as if he does by giving me potentially bad advice.
If she doesn't pass the eggs by the next appointment on October 28th, he is going to talk about surgery then. He doesn't want to wait too long in case she becomes septic from the eggs just sitting in there, but he also doesn't want to do surgery now while she's sick or she will most likely die before they begin. I did tell him I had gotten bloodwork a few months back and it all turned up normal (she was seen by the bad vet there that day, so I wanted to be sure he knew about it in case he wanted to look it over himself), so she wasn't fighting any infections or anything at the time. He just said he didn't want to do blood work right now with her condition that it can be bad for recovery to have to draw that much blood if not truly necessary.
I agreed (though I wasn't exactly asking for bloodwork, just letting him know she wasn't showing signs or anything back then, but anyways....)
So I thanked him, took the meds, made a follow up appointment, paid, and went off to a city closer to home that I knew how to get around and went in search of supplies! After some research and a few different stores, I finally acquired play sand, top soil, and a dark rubbermaid tub. I got home, had to sift the soil because there were wood pieces and clay in it (it was the only one without any fertilizer, so I went with it.) I mixed the soil and sand together, added warm water to make it sqiushy enough for her to build a burrow/tunnel to lay and put her in it. My fiance came home and we sat and watched to see if she felt like digging or anything. She was interested in her new surroundings and kind of walked around, licked a bit, looked, and then mostly tried climbing up the rubbermaid and only kicked her back legs a few times as if she MIGHT want to dig.
He began doing his own search about lay boxes, and he said "Most people just use play sand without water and it works." I had bought 2 bags of sand and soil so I said "Well, I followed what I breeder did on youtube, but if you think she may like just sand better, grab the travel bin (the one I had been using for her nebulizing treatments) and dump the rest of this bag in there and see if she likes that better. He did and I would argue she seemed to like just the sand better. she moved around differently in it. Didn't try to climb out and actually ran her lower half through the sand in the way she does when she would get comfy to lay down and kind of do a little squiggle.
Since the big issue now is getting her to lay these eggs, I have some questions!
First off, which would she be more likely to lay eggs in, or is it just a dragon's preference?
If so, how could I determine QUICKLY which to use for her?
Does it matter that the tub the sand is in, if that's what she prefers, is clear? Does it need to be dark for them to feel safe? I had gotten the new tub since all of mine were clear and I saw everyone uses dark ones, so I assumed that is better and felt more private/safer to them to lay the eggs?
If so, I can immediately put the sand in the dark tub.
How often sound I put her in the box? I read where some people just put them in when the start digging in their enclosures and others leave them in all day, some over night, but I can't see where it's a good idea to do over night at least in the soil, sand, water mixture as I would think it could become to cold for her.
I had also clamped her heat lamp on the tub to keep it warm, but is that a bad idea? Does it NEED to be dark?
I basically just need any and ALL tips on getting these eggs out ASAP!!
**Now, let me explain I bit more as to WHY I think I messed up horribly. I don't like the idea of broadcasting my idiocy, BUT I feel it's my obligation to let everyone know so that MAYBE someone else can learn from this and take action sooner....Let's go back about 3-4 years for a second before I moved to this new house. Winter time (2015 I believe) had came and went and Spyro actually had her first brumation. She didn't come out of it well and wouldn't eat much. In the summer of 2016, I had been dragon sitting for my cousin's dragon whilst they went to the beach. He was male. They were housed in the same room and could see each other. He was head bobbing at her and she saw him, but didn't seem to care. Now, around that time, before or after the babysitting I'm not sure eaxactly, was when she began acting really off. I took her to a vet I now DO NOT and would not ever go to and she simply ran a fecal, said she had pinworms, gave me panacur, sent me on my way. The dosing was totally wrong I find out later, so I never go back, but give the meds. I get a NEW vet when she is still not well (late 2016 to early 2017) and they basically just say "Omg she's so underweight and on the brink of death from refusing food, give her this Mazuri stuff as a slurry and get her weight up." I do that for a while and she gains some weight, but still not right. They were zero help and after a few instance with out snakes not going well, I cut them off and search for a new vet.
Cut to March 2018 (I have her records up now, so I know that was her very first visit) at the current vet. They still see nothing off except commenting on her weight. I explained how the other vets were and how Spyro has been acting for years now, and nothing apparently stood out to them as being wrong. NOW, right there is when I should have put my foot down and acted like a crazy dragon lady and demanded some tests, but I did not. I trusted him, liked how he seemed much more knowledgable, and how he was with my other animals and, for the most part, Spyro too. so, I let this back and forth of 6 visits now go on with no real answers and me not pushing them to help me figure anything out. I finally decided to put my foot down and demand blood work in July. It came back fine. I was at a loss again.
I sought help here for her RI they seemed to dismiss before as she, OF COURSE, never presented with any issues at any of the visits. All seemed to be going well until about 2 weeks ago when it didn't. She went downhill FAST. The first week it wasn't too bad and my fiance said he thought she had mucous coming out of her mouth the week of the 1st. I was at work, I didn't see it, and he had wiped her mouth without taking a picture to show me, so I had brushed it off; stupidly saying "Well, I fed her on lunch, it was probably just some food." Her RI had seemed totally over with, so I was convinced it wasn't that. Well, last week she was swallowing and mouth breathing more and more as the week went on, then Friday (the 11th) I saw the mucous too! That's when I concluded I was making a vet appointment and they WOULD NOT let her out without meds. Sadly, I only wanted that one vet to see Spyro and he was unavailable until today.
Now, what was the point of that SUPREMELY LONG story?? Simple. The answer was in front of me from the start and I was too stupid to see it! Now, I can't say for sure she was gravid this whole time since seeing the male dragon, that seems a bit much to me, but my fiance did read where even seeing a male can send a female into producing eggs. She had never been gravid before and I thought nothing of housing them in the same room with them being able to see each other. I have heard that sometimes if they are not given a lay box they can reabsorb the eggs....So, going off of that theory.....she has always dug from time to time in her cage, but usually when she did it seemed to me she was digging for a sleep spot like dogs do as she had done that in the past before squiggling into a comfy spot. However, looking back, I would be willing to bet once seeing the male it shot her into egg mode and from then on she was digging for a spot to lay eggs. The rest of my theory is that she might have eventually just reabsorbed those eggs and by going through all of that she expended so much energy and calcium that it just tanked her. Myself, nor any other vet caught this, so I didn't up any calcium or foods or anything you should do for a gravid female, and she got worse and worse. Now, when she began to perk up, eat more this year, put on weight, therefore getting more calcium, and breeding season began, she went into egg mode again. However, not knowing this, I never upped any calcium supplements, and due to her possibly having spent her calcium in her bones the last time from eggs, resulting in the slight hump, it got worse because her body was taking even more from her and her RI that I am certain she had long before, got worse because everything was draining her and she could not fight it. Only this time, her eggs WERE calcified enough to form properly and she became egg bound on top of everything else. AGAIN, JUST A THEORY, but I think it could be right.....It just all clicked today when I thought back on everything, I feel absolutely stupid. I has so concerned with husbandry or tumors or something invisible, that I completely ignored what was right in front of me this entire time.
So, if anyone has bothered reading all of this, then there are a few things I want you to take away from this....
1. If YOU think something is wrong with your bearded dragon, MAKE the doctor look for anything and everything until you are satisfied, if they refuse, find another vet who will listen to your concerns. Do not be afraid to think you are undermining their judgement just because they have dr in their title. They do not know everything, they are not always right. If your baby is acting out of the norm, make the vet fully understand that and make them help. Now, a good vet will listen and hear you out once you finally put your foot down. I let it slide, thinking I would upset them or that I was overreacting. If they aren't acting themselves, something IS wrong. They can't tell us, so it is up to us as their owners/parents to be their advocate give them a voice that will be heard.
2. If you see little things here and there that don't seem to add up, but make you think they must all be connected, take a step back, do some research, some thinking, put all behaviors together and correlate them with what my have been happening in the house or their own enclosure or that circumstance. Was male introduced near the female? Could she be gravid? Is he/she limping? Did they fall off something in the enclosure? Did they jump off the couch while cuddling and you didn't catch them in time and they land maybe a little hard one day, but seem fine right after and you thought nothing of it, but now days or weeks later they seem hurt? Are their vitamin or calcium levels maybe low? Just things like that. Little pieces, that maybe don't appear at first glance to fit, but really they just might.
3. Do NOT WAIT to see a vet if you think something is really off. Even if the vet wrote you off 50 times before, they are the ones with machines to see inside and test blood and give prescriptions. Had I went to the vet after the normal bloodwork and requested ultrasounds and xrays, this may have be a less frightening result. I could have cut the eggs off at the pass before fluid build up, got them to pass, and gotten the RI resolved in July.
Bottom line, I ignored all of the signs as a whole, and although I was doing what I thought best given the lack of vet help, I should have made them listen to me, and should have been the voice for Spyro she so desperately needed a heck of lot sooner.
Like I said, a really hate to type my bearded dragon owner shortcomings for all to see, but I've said from the beginning I wanted any and all of my posts to have all of the information to hopefully help someone else in the future. It pains me to no end what is happening to her, I can only hope she will pass these eggs and surgery will not be needed as we all worry she might not make it out of the operating room. Yes, I messed up big time, and again feel horrible, so PLEASE, I beg you no rude comments on any of this. I have 10000000% learned from this and will put the pieces together in the future and be the voice for my girl, Spyro. I want to thank everyone for their help and suppport, especially Tracie!
And, again, if there are any suggestions on passing these eggs without surgery and quickly, PLEASE let me know! Also, side thought, I had been watching Dr. K on Hulu months ago (actually on NatGeo I think for those with tv) and today I wondered.....She had a tortoise on there once that was egg bound and she gave her some kind of injection to induce the 'labor' of sorts, similar to, or maybe even the same drug, that they give pregnant women. Has anyone heard of this method for passing eggs in bearded dragons? And if so, do you know what that drug might be?
Also, here are the ultrasound pictures. I will post the xray when I get it emailed to me. I took pictures with my phone of the ultrasound since he didn't have a simple way to send them to me, but the xray is just a file on his laptop so he said he would email it, but didn't get around to it today. Hopefully Monday I will have it available to share with you all as well.
The black spots are fluid build up.
More fluid in between these also.
These ones, luckily, look to have little to no fluid.