Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI *(Surpise Eggs, possible surgery)*

This forum is for urgent health concerns, where your beardie seems very ill and you need immediate help!

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby hmwyer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:09 am

Made an appointment for Spyro. They couldn't get her in today unless I would let any vet see her as a "work in". I said nope, only Dr. Patton. I don't like or trust the other vets. Especially the one who tried to talk me out of bloodwork and belittle my opinion and also tell me there was no such thing as a vitamin deficiency in dragons. So, anyways, she has an appointment for Friday at 10 am, and I am hoping I can get off work for that. I would take her in today if I trusted anyone else and knew it wouldn't be a waste of time and money. But yeah, we'll see how this goes Friday.
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby hmwyer » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:04 pm

Hey everyone! For those following this thread, I want to say a few things before telling about the vet visit.
First off, for those just here for my FINAL review on Tylan as a treatment, I would say....yes it CAN work, however, I wouldn't recommend it for every situation. I think if your dragon is perfectly healthy otherwise, it could be worth a shot. That being said, my vet did have something to say about nebulizing Tylan. He said to BE CAREFUL of it as in some beardies it CAN irritate the lung tissue. I'm assuming he meant it can be almost like an allergic reaction that can occur in some dragons and possibly exacerbate a tough Respiratory Infection or one that might be too bad off for such a treatment. He did not totally discredit it, he just simply warned me that it CAN cause irritation sometimes. SO......my thoughts, if it's mild and just beginning and they are healthy otherwise, sure give it shot. But if it isn't working after a few weeks or gets worse PLEASE GO TO THE VET! DON'T WAIT!!
Secondly, I AM A HUGE FOOL!! :banghead: :banghead: I feel like a terrible owner! And here's why:
(Fair warning this is a LOOOONG post)
To start, I got nearly every question except her eye issue answered. (When I asked about the eye he looked at it really well and said it for sure was not right and that it almost looked like a corneal collapse. When I asked what that meant for her, he honestly said "I don't know....I've never seen it before. I don't know what has caused this. I applaud his honesty, and am glad he didn't just give me some made/BS answer, but I'm not too thrilled that we still don't know what is going on there. Maybe we can find out later, since it doesn't seem to be as pressing of an issue as everything else right now.)
The vet was SHOOK by her condition. The RI had gotten sooo bad in a matter of days that by the time she was seen she was limp, breathing so heavily and just terrible all around.
The first thing he did was ask me about what was going on, I explained everything from start to finish as he examined her. He said the RI was so bad he worried about pneumonia. But before we got fully into that, he had something else to say.....he said "I think she may be egg bound. I want to do an ultrasound. Has she every laid before?" I said no, not once, but definitely please check! And I too worry about pneumonia, so I was hoping to get an xray to be 1000% sure. He said yes, I'll get everything set up. He also made comments hoping we could get her through the RI because she was soooo bad. That alone had me worried she wouldn't recover from even the RI and I texted my fiance who was at work and we discussed that if she was incurable that we may have to euthanize as it would be better than making her suffocate to death. I agreed that, if it came down to it, yes of course I don't want her to pass away in any horrific manner. But I told him if that was the case he would need to be present with me to say goodbye also. (We work at the same office so getting time off together is hard, but he HAD to be there if we were told bad news and had to put her down.) I said, okay, we've figured that out, but I'm obviously going to see what the vet says about her chances and at least try whatever he recommends first before jumping to that thought! He agreed and I sat in silence crying at how terrible a shape she was in, how I should've taken her in long ago, demanded treatment whether they saw it anything wrong or not, and thinking about how we may have to euthanize.
So, he comes back with her, grabs his laptop to show me the xray and has the ultrasound in hand. I immediately see the ultrasound as it was sitting on the table, and I could not believe what I saw!
YOU GUYS!! SHE IS EGG BOUND!!
He says "She's pregnant!!" My firs thought when he said that I was like "How could she be pregnant? She's never been with a male." Well, turns out he just meant she had infertile eggs. I was like thinking "Dude, you said she was pregnant and I took that to mean FERTILE eggs. So I'm sitting there for all of 10 seconds questioning everything I thought I knew about bearded dragons. Like, can they reproduce without a male?? I have never read that they were asexual...." He just used a weird term to say she had eggs.
ANYWAYS, he said he was concerned about them because in between a few eggs he saw fluid, which is NOT GOOD. He said he wants her to try and pass them herself since I have never given her a lay box to try as I had no idea she even had them. He wants to try that first before considering surgery in her current condition. He said if we tried it right now she would likely not make it and that the anesthesia would kill her because her lungs would stop working. He also said she would have about a 15% chance of survival, but I'm not sure if he meant now or even after the RI was clear. He mentioned her age too, so I'm thinking he may have meant in general it's a 15% chance. I hope not though. So, then he pulled up the xray and he showed me her lungs and said they are supposed to be black space there, well, no there wasn't. It was white. He also showed me she had poo higher up in her intestines. He asked about her pooping and I said she had actually been pooping a lot recently and he said she might be having issues passing that because of the eggs. Next we showed me the eye area and both sides looked the exact same, so nothing off looking on the xray. Then he directed my attention to an enlarged area on her left side. He said that COULD just be her lungs, but because they aren't clear he can't be sure it isn't an enlarged liver. So that's something we'll recheck later on, but for now nothing definitive. Finally, he pointed out a curve forming in her spine. I gasped and asked is that way she has a hump when she is walking?! He said yes, it's most likely due to her body taking calcium from her bones to go to her eggs. He also showed me some other spots on her legs and such that looked like they were losing calcium/density from the eggs and said that is probably why she walking funny and flipping over because she isn't able to properly support herself.
After the run down of all of her issues, I asked about her tail. He straight up said "That's the least of our concern. I'm not worried about it." So, the tail is fine and he had zero cares about it, nor did he even ask how it may have happened or anything. He asked nothing about it because it was basically a non-issue at this point and thinks it will be fine. It's mostly healed up, so we'll see if the bone gets healed over.
In the end, he prescribed oral baytril (.4ml every day for 10 days) and a liquid calcium (.5ml twice a day for 14 days) and I asked about making a slurry of repashy instead of feeding solids and he said yes to do that so that it will pass easier while we try to get the eggs out. He said to set her up a lay box and seeing if she can pass it in a week. When I asked more about how he recommends to do a lay box he said "Well, I'm not well versed on them, so I usually tell people to look online and see what breeders do since they do it all of the time they will have the best advice." I really do love that he's honest about not fully knowing things instead of trying to sound as if he does by giving me potentially bad advice.
If she doesn't pass the eggs by the next appointment on October 28th, he is going to talk about surgery then. He doesn't want to wait too long in case she becomes septic from the eggs just sitting in there, but he also doesn't want to do surgery now while she's sick or she will most likely die before they begin. I did tell him I had gotten bloodwork a few months back and it all turned up normal (she was seen by the bad vet there that day, so I wanted to be sure he knew about it in case he wanted to look it over himself), so she wasn't fighting any infections or anything at the time. He just said he didn't want to do blood work right now with her condition that it can be bad for recovery to have to draw that much blood if not truly necessary.
I agreed (though I wasn't exactly asking for bloodwork, just letting him know she wasn't showing signs or anything back then, but anyways....)
So I thanked him, took the meds, made a follow up appointment, paid, and went off to a city closer to home that I knew how to get around and went in search of supplies! After some research and a few different stores, I finally acquired play sand, top soil, and a dark rubbermaid tub. I got home, had to sift the soil because there were wood pieces and clay in it (it was the only one without any fertilizer, so I went with it.) I mixed the soil and sand together, added warm water to make it sqiushy enough for her to build a burrow/tunnel to lay and put her in it. My fiance came home and we sat and watched to see if she felt like digging or anything. She was interested in her new surroundings and kind of walked around, licked a bit, looked, and then mostly tried climbing up the rubbermaid and only kicked her back legs a few times as if she MIGHT want to dig.
He began doing his own search about lay boxes, and he said "Most people just use play sand without water and it works." I had bought 2 bags of sand and soil so I said "Well, I followed what I breeder did on youtube, but if you think she may like just sand better, grab the travel bin (the one I had been using for her nebulizing treatments) and dump the rest of this bag in there and see if she likes that better. He did and I would argue she seemed to like just the sand better. she moved around differently in it. Didn't try to climb out and actually ran her lower half through the sand in the way she does when she would get comfy to lay down and kind of do a little squiggle.
Since the big issue now is getting her to lay these eggs, I have some questions!
First off, which would she be more likely to lay eggs in, or is it just a dragon's preference?
If so, how could I determine QUICKLY which to use for her?
Does it matter that the tub the sand is in, if that's what she prefers, is clear? Does it need to be dark for them to feel safe? I had gotten the new tub since all of mine were clear and I saw everyone uses dark ones, so I assumed that is better and felt more private/safer to them to lay the eggs?
If so, I can immediately put the sand in the dark tub.
How often sound I put her in the box? I read where some people just put them in when the start digging in their enclosures and others leave them in all day, some over night, but I can't see where it's a good idea to do over night at least in the soil, sand, water mixture as I would think it could become to cold for her.
I had also clamped her heat lamp on the tub to keep it warm, but is that a bad idea? Does it NEED to be dark?
I basically just need any and ALL tips on getting these eggs out ASAP!!


**Now, let me explain I bit more as to WHY I think I messed up horribly. I don't like the idea of broadcasting my idiocy, BUT I feel it's my obligation to let everyone know so that MAYBE someone else can learn from this and take action sooner....Let's go back about 3-4 years for a second before I moved to this new house. Winter time (2015 I believe) had came and went and Spyro actually had her first brumation. She didn't come out of it well and wouldn't eat much. In the summer of 2016, I had been dragon sitting for my cousin's dragon whilst they went to the beach. He was male. They were housed in the same room and could see each other. He was head bobbing at her and she saw him, but didn't seem to care. Now, around that time, before or after the babysitting I'm not sure eaxactly, was when she began acting really off. I took her to a vet I now DO NOT and would not ever go to and she simply ran a fecal, said she had pinworms, gave me panacur, sent me on my way. The dosing was totally wrong I find out later, so I never go back, but give the meds. I get a NEW vet when she is still not well (late 2016 to early 2017) and they basically just say "Omg she's so underweight and on the brink of death from refusing food, give her this Mazuri stuff as a slurry and get her weight up." I do that for a while and she gains some weight, but still not right. They were zero help and after a few instance with out snakes not going well, I cut them off and search for a new vet.
Cut to March 2018 (I have her records up now, so I know that was her very first visit) at the current vet. They still see nothing off except commenting on her weight. I explained how the other vets were and how Spyro has been acting for years now, and nothing apparently stood out to them as being wrong. NOW, right there is when I should have put my foot down and acted like a crazy dragon lady and demanded some tests, but I did not. I trusted him, liked how he seemed much more knowledgable, and how he was with my other animals and, for the most part, Spyro too. so, I let this back and forth of 6 visits now go on with no real answers and me not pushing them to help me figure anything out. I finally decided to put my foot down and demand blood work in July. It came back fine. I was at a loss again.
I sought help here for her RI they seemed to dismiss before as she, OF COURSE, never presented with any issues at any of the visits. All seemed to be going well until about 2 weeks ago when it didn't. She went downhill FAST. The first week it wasn't too bad and my fiance said he thought she had mucous coming out of her mouth the week of the 1st. I was at work, I didn't see it, and he had wiped her mouth without taking a picture to show me, so I had brushed it off; stupidly saying "Well, I fed her on lunch, it was probably just some food." Her RI had seemed totally over with, so I was convinced it wasn't that. Well, last week she was swallowing and mouth breathing more and more as the week went on, then Friday (the 11th) I saw the mucous too! That's when I concluded I was making a vet appointment and they WOULD NOT let her out without meds. Sadly, I only wanted that one vet to see Spyro and he was unavailable until today.
Now, what was the point of that SUPREMELY LONG story?? Simple. The answer was in front of me from the start and I was too stupid to see it! Now, I can't say for sure she was gravid this whole time since seeing the male dragon, that seems a bit much to me, but my fiance did read where even seeing a male can send a female into producing eggs. She had never been gravid before and I thought nothing of housing them in the same room with them being able to see each other. I have heard that sometimes if they are not given a lay box they can reabsorb the eggs....So, going off of that theory.....she has always dug from time to time in her cage, but usually when she did it seemed to me she was digging for a sleep spot like dogs do as she had done that in the past before squiggling into a comfy spot. However, looking back, I would be willing to bet once seeing the male it shot her into egg mode and from then on she was digging for a spot to lay eggs. The rest of my theory is that she might have eventually just reabsorbed those eggs and by going through all of that she expended so much energy and calcium that it just tanked her. Myself, nor any other vet caught this, so I didn't up any calcium or foods or anything you should do for a gravid female, and she got worse and worse. Now, when she began to perk up, eat more this year, put on weight, therefore getting more calcium, and breeding season began, she went into egg mode again. However, not knowing this, I never upped any calcium supplements, and due to her possibly having spent her calcium in her bones the last time from eggs, resulting in the slight hump, it got worse because her body was taking even more from her and her RI that I am certain she had long before, got worse because everything was draining her and she could not fight it. Only this time, her eggs WERE calcified enough to form properly and she became egg bound on top of everything else. AGAIN, JUST A THEORY, but I think it could be right.....It just all clicked today when I thought back on everything, I feel absolutely stupid. I has so concerned with husbandry or tumors or something invisible, that I completely ignored what was right in front of me this entire time.
So, if anyone has bothered reading all of this, then there are a few things I want you to take away from this....
1. If YOU think something is wrong with your bearded dragon, MAKE the doctor look for anything and everything until you are satisfied, if they refuse, find another vet who will listen to your concerns. Do not be afraid to think you are undermining their judgement just because they have dr in their title. They do not know everything, they are not always right. If your baby is acting out of the norm, make the vet fully understand that and make them help. Now, a good vet will listen and hear you out once you finally put your foot down. I let it slide, thinking I would upset them or that I was overreacting. If they aren't acting themselves, something IS wrong. They can't tell us, so it is up to us as their owners/parents to be their advocate give them a voice that will be heard.
2. If you see little things here and there that don't seem to add up, but make you think they must all be connected, take a step back, do some research, some thinking, put all behaviors together and correlate them with what my have been happening in the house or their own enclosure or that circumstance. Was male introduced near the female? Could she be gravid? Is he/she limping? Did they fall off something in the enclosure? Did they jump off the couch while cuddling and you didn't catch them in time and they land maybe a little hard one day, but seem fine right after and you thought nothing of it, but now days or weeks later they seem hurt? Are their vitamin or calcium levels maybe low? Just things like that. Little pieces, that maybe don't appear at first glance to fit, but really they just might.
3. Do NOT WAIT to see a vet if you think something is really off. Even if the vet wrote you off 50 times before, they are the ones with machines to see inside and test blood and give prescriptions. Had I went to the vet after the normal bloodwork and requested ultrasounds and xrays, this may have be a less frightening result. I could have cut the eggs off at the pass before fluid build up, got them to pass, and gotten the RI resolved in July.
Bottom line, I ignored all of the signs as a whole, and although I was doing what I thought best given the lack of vet help, I should have made them listen to me, and should have been the voice for Spyro she so desperately needed a heck of lot sooner.
Like I said, a really hate to type my bearded dragon owner shortcomings for all to see, but I've said from the beginning I wanted any and all of my posts to have all of the information to hopefully help someone else in the future. It pains me to no end what is happening to her, I can only hope she will pass these eggs and surgery will not be needed as we all worry she might not make it out of the operating room. Yes, I messed up big time, and again feel horrible, so PLEASE, I beg you no rude comments on any of this. I have 10000000% learned from this and will put the pieces together in the future and be the voice for my girl, Spyro. I want to thank everyone for their help and suppport, especially Tracie!
And, again, if there are any suggestions on passing these eggs without surgery and quickly, PLEASE let me know! Also, side thought, I had been watching Dr. K on Hulu months ago (actually on NatGeo I think for those with tv) and today I wondered.....She had a tortoise on there once that was egg bound and she gave her some kind of injection to induce the 'labor' of sorts, similar to, or maybe even the same drug, that they give pregnant women. Has anyone heard of this method for passing eggs in bearded dragons? And if so, do you know what that drug might be?

Also, here are the ultrasound pictures. I will post the xray when I get it emailed to me. I took pictures with my phone of the ultrasound since he didn't have a simple way to send them to me, but the xray is just a file on his laptop so he said he would email it, but didn't get around to it today. Hopefully Monday I will have it available to share with you all as well.

[Click image to enlarge]

The black spots are fluid build up.
[Click image to enlarge]

More fluid in between these also.
[Click image to enlarge]

These ones, luckily, look to have little to no fluid.
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby Drache613 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:15 am

Hello,

Wow, what a story. I am so sorry you & Spyro have had to endure all of this! They can be an
extremely hard soul to diagnose. While I realize you want to take all of the blame, we all make
mistakes sure but the previous vets did not help you.
Sometimes the vets even miss things so try not to be so hard on yourself. Hopefully with your
care & diligence you will get her back to health. They often do develop infertile eggs, just due
to a male's presence.
There is a hormone called Oxytocin, which is often used to help induce labor. It is important to
keep in mind that this should only be given if the eggs have dropped & she is in post ovulatory
stasis. If they have not dropped or aren't fully shelled, then she wouldn't be ready & it wouldn't
be a good idea to give that. In a case of egg binding though, she may not be able to get them
laid. She could be low in calcium, or there might be an irregularly shaped egg blocking the duct,
etc which is complicating things.
Be sure you have a little bit of warmth by the lay bin in case she needs to warm up if she's in the
bin awhile.

Let us know how she is doing.
Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38820
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby AHBD » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:01 am

Hi there, I read MOST of this but skimmed a little at the end but I agree with Tracie, don't beat yourself up, she may or may nt have had eggs back then. Females can br in the presence of a male without developing eggs but there's no way to know at this point.

Anyway I wanted to reply about the lay box, I've had many females lay eggs in the past and they will accept both sand as well as sand/topsoil. Makes no difference it may just be a coincidence but if you feel best with sand only, that's O.K. Please post a pic of the box for reference. One thing to make it easier for her since she's weak is to get a large shoe box or similar sized thick cardboard box and cut one end off of it. Put that upside down over a mound of the sand/soil and push it down. Dig some of the soil out by hand to start a " cave " for her. Beardies will often show interest in that type of set up. Here's a video [ not mine ] of one breeder doing it. Skip to the 2:45 mark to see him put the box in to act as a cave. You don't need a towel over it like he does but you do need to be in a warm room :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNwqHsV7peE
AHBD
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 23167
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:20 am

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby hmwyer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:31 am

Tracie,
I'm not sure of anything about if they have dropped, if they are solid enough, or if there is an odd shaped one. I can call and ask the dr about it Monday though and see what he thinks. But I also, thank you for that bit about the vets. I feel mixed about the whole thing like who's to blame. My fiance is blaming mostly the vets because he knows how hard I tried to figure this out, but after my huge, cathartic rant on her last night after an exhausting day, I don't fully blame myself today. Still bummed, but totally optimistic.

AHBD,
Haha, I don't blame you for skimming, I would too honestly. :lol: Just thought if someone is willing to read my whole rant maybe it would help in some way. :dontknow:
And oh my gosh! That is the EXACT video I followed and John said "just do sand." So I still have both set up, but feel like the mix just looks more inviting. I followed his video exactly, except I put her heat lamp on the top. Should I do a CHE so it stays dark? Also can I just leave her in it for most of the day, only when I am home to watch of course, so between 3-7 hours depending on work? Or should I only do it when she is digging in her house? I am on a time crunch, so I thought leaving her in daily for as long as possible my up may chances of not missing her digging to lay in her enclosure.
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby AHBD » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:42 am

I DID read most of it right until the last 3 points but my brain was getting a bit scrambled by then. :) But it is good to write your experience, it will be here for many people to read .

It's hard to say how long to leave her in the box, it will be humid and if the heat lamp is on too long it can dry out the substrate. You can try putting her in twice a day for an hour , set her right near the entrance of the cave. Either a basking light [ but not too hot ] or CHE will be fine.
AHBD
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 23167
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:20 am

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby hmwyer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:20 am

Mine too, but I figured what the heck, maybe someone could use it one day!
And okay, excellent. I am gonna give it a shot and if I catch her digging in between I'll for sure rush her to the bin. :mrgreen:
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby Drache613 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:57 pm

Hello,

How is your girl doing this evening?
Hopefully she will lay without any trouble! They can get quite picky sometimes but if she
needs to lay she should use what is available to her.
Has she had any black beard yet?

Keep us posted on her.
Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38820
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI

Postby hmwyer » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Hey guys! I got the xrays late tonight, took a while to figure out how to resize and upload, so hopefully it turns out!

[Click image to enlarge]


Here's the normal xray he showed me. Yes, that is poop. He said it was unusually high in the intestinal tract and I'm working on getting her to pass that. As you can see her lungs are not good, and that bulge on the left side is what he was unsure if it was an enlarged liver. And also, you can see the bone density loss pretty clearly in her legs and back and some other areas.

[Click image to enlarge]


After viewing the original image in the xray viewer link he sent, I found you can invert the image and see certain things better, such as her bone density loss. This is partly, or maybe mostly explains her hump and wobble. Upon seeing the inverted image....I'm now noticing the eyes DO look different. Maybe it's just me, but in the right eye (the bad one) "cavity" area it almost looks sunken in just SLIGHTLY more....Is it just me?

Also, I have seen xrays online of beardies with eggs and they are clearly visible.....I do not see a single egg in the xray.....Unless that's what is in the very lowest parts of her abdomen that you can see better on the inverted xray....like the light bumpies along the sides.....that can't be good, right? I feel like I might be trying in vein to get her to lay these.....okay, upon further googling.....I'm almost certain now she may have follicular statsis....I hope I'm being dramatic and she'll surprise me with eggs by Monday, but.....probably not.... :/
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI *(Surpise Eggs, possible surger

Postby Drache613 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:00 pm

Hello,

I do see some difference in the eye orbits. I am not sure why they would differ other than
the possibility of fluid buildup, etc.
The bone density will hopefully improve. That is definitely a big reason why she is not
walking as well as she should be.
I see those eggs, too! If she isn't able to lay them, which is isn't looking too promising, then
surgery is going to be the best option. Otherwise, she will probably not make it otherwise if
she gets horribly eggbound, with an infection.

How is she doing this evening?
Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38820
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI *(Surpise Eggs, possible surger

Postby hmwyer » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:16 am

Glad I'm not the only one who sees that in the eyes! Hopefully it improves when she does. The RI seems to be clearing up nicely. Still a bit of mucous, but otherwise on the mend there.
My bisset worry is her going into surgery and dying from anesthesia. Not the surgery itself really. That part seems straightforward. Cut open, pull put reproductive organs, close her up. But I keep reading that Beardies are not great with anesthesia and some drugs work better than others with them. I plan to ask the dr all about that though. I'm not so sure they've ever operated on on a dragon, so that too will be a question I ask. I keep hearing it's risky surgery, but I have yet to find a story online of a dragon not making it, unless they just opted to have surgery and put them down instead.
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI *(Surpise Eggs, possible surger

Postby Drache613 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:21 pm

Hello,

Do keep us updated on her. I really hope that she has some improvement on her eyes, poor
girl. I am sure she is probably tired of the problems & it can't feel real good, either.
Anytime reptiles go under anesthesia it can be a risk no matter what it is. If she is stable & in
overall good health then she technically shouldn't have any problem assuming the anesthesia
dose & oxygen titration is correct during the surgery.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38820
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI *(Surpise Eggs, possible surger

Postby hmwyer » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:37 pm

Her eyes haven't changed sadly, but she is getting some strength back. She has been fighting me pretty hard now on the meds and she even dig her one hole sort of in her sand in her tank today. She more or less buried her lower half while I was at work and my fiance called and was like did you put her like that on lunch? And I was like no I just gave her the baytril and put her back in her tank. She had moved by the time I got home but was still in the sand, just buried anymore. So that's promising maybe?
The weather was nice out today, sunny and a warm 70 plus, so I took her outside for nearly 2 hrs for chance at natural sunlight. She LOVED IT! Was running around and basking! Sadly, when she opened her mouth I saw bubbly mucous in the back of her throat, so RI is still there. But getting better for sure. I worry her uvb is maybe too high. It spans past her tank size so I can't rig it lower in the tank and I'm afraid to put anything for her to climb on because she is still wobbling and ai don't want her flipping over when I'm not home watching her as she didn't right herself last time. It's an arcadia t5 ho 12% which I read can still give adequate uvb rays at 16", but I worry that isn't enough for all the calcium I have been giving her. With the sand on the one side it does elevate her on the one side to be around 8" away but she isn't in the sand on that end really. She stays to the middle and back area where her uvb is not.
I hope she doesn't need surgery because I don't know if they will know for sure how to safely administer anesthesia. I'm not certain they've actually operated on a bearded dragon. And of course I will ask if anyone has in the office.
They do have a new vet who has worked almost exclusively with exotics and worked at the Honulu and Bronx zoos, so I would trust her most to know a safe way. I haven't met her, but plan to ask for her input and even be present should she need surgery. I don't want to undermine my vet, but I just think I should trust her a bit more given her credentials. I am also planning to ask how and what they use for anesthesia on dragons and also step by step how surgery would go.
I'm hopeful she has only just begun developing these eggs and they will look different on Monday's ultrasound.
Also, I keep doing research on surgery for bearded dragons and also egg laying and I keep seeing people talk about their dragons having contractions.....how will I know if she is having them? I tried looking up a video or even description of them, but I have no idea. Like people say "oh. She's having contractions 2mins apart....." All I picture is a female just squeezing her stomach in almost similar to a deep, hard breath.l and maybe some pulsing at the tail/vent area. Is that close?
She was glass surfing a minute ago for a few seconds then stopped and laid down. Idk if that means anything or she just could see her reflection. I am so lost and confused on all of this.....
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI *(Surpise Eggs, possible surger

Postby Drache613 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Hello,

How is your girl doing today? That is promising she seems to be getting a little bit stronger.
So she was exploring the sand box then? Maybe her natural instincts will kick in & she can
get the eggs laid. I'm sure that the natural sunshine helped her & it sounds like she had a
great time, too. Let's hope she can get them laid so you wont have to have surgery on her.
It's hard finding a good vet that has experience with reptiles or bearded dragons.
I hope her respiratory issues clear up without more complications because she doesn't need
anymore trouble right now! How much more baytril are you giving, how many more days?
You have the reflector with the T5 12% Arcadia, right? A 10 or so distance is fine, since you
do have bright lighting alongside of it too.
Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38820
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Tylosin Vs. F10sc For RI *(Surpise Eggs, possible surger

Postby hmwyer » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:31 pm

She seems to be doing better today also. She is still hanging out in her sand box area. Has her own ditch made that she is almost always laying in. I even put her in the opposite end of the tank on lunch after her baytril dose just to be sure it wasn't a fluke, but she keeps going back! I haven't put her in the separate lay box since she began digging in the sand because I didn't want to stress her out and she seems much more comfortable in her own home. Should I try the separate laybox a little over the weekend?
And assuming she maybe just started grwoing these eggs recently, how long does it usually take for infertile eggs to fully form enough to lay? I have read that as soon as they began to form, bearded dragons will act errectic and as if they are going to lay even though they've just started, is this true? Could she just have been digging a few weeks ago in prepartion for them forming? I just worry I missed my window for her to lay? How big/what do infertile eggs look like? I'm sure they don't look exactly like fertile ones, so I want to be sure on Monday that when he does another ultrasound we can decide if maybe they are still forming or if they are formed and egg bound. I don't want to jump the gun if she still could pass them herself. I just can't seem to find much on infertile clutches to use as a comparison for her.
Also, she is getting .4ml of baytril once daily and the bottle says to use for 14 days. if she's not clear by then, will using it longer be a bad thing or okay? Or is there something else we could use that would work better?
And her calcium is .5ml every 12 hrs, so 1ml every 24hrs. I have been adding calcium powder to her repashy, is it bad to keep giving more calcium on top of her liquid doses given by the vet? I know they need lots of calcium and since she's already lost bone density I thought I should keep using it.
Yes, I'm using a reflector for it also and that is the bulb I'm using. I just measured the distance, and where she is in the sand I hvae moved the uvb bulb over top of her, but it's only 14inches away from her and 15 inches from the bottom of the light to the cage bottom. Is that too far? I just replaced it this summer, so it's less than 6 months old.
Also, temps on the sand area are 96, she is 95 right now, so it's not right on her basking area, but near it. Is that too hot/too cold for her to lay? Since putting in the sand too, it seems her humidity has gone down to 24. The sand started out as clump-able just as tutorials stated, but it has dried out over the week and is now just loose sand. Is that a bad thing too? Should I re-wet it?
Thank you! I hope it all works out too! I posted on a facebook bearded dragon page to see if anyone on there had any experience with surgery and anesthesia and only one person replied (out of thousands of members) saying basically she's old and they too had an 8 year old with an RI that died from that alone even with treatment and that surgery is very risky if the anesthesia isn't done right, but had no insight on it. Telling me theirs died from an RI that was being treated did nothing to ease my worrying. :cry:
hmwyer
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:54 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

PreviousNext

Return to Beardie ER

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users