Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

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Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby MissCutiePatootie » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:12 pm

Hey guys, it's been a while since I last posted about my boy Malachi. Malachi is a partial translucent het. hypo super citrus beardie. I bought him from a breeder. He will be 5 years old in October I believe. He has head tremors for some time now and I'm unsure what from. I've heard it could be genetic from the translucent gene. I'm hoping someone will have some good input or knowledge to share on the matter!
Firstly, I don't think it's a calcium deficiency as he's always had calcium and after a year or two old he stopped taking anything with powdered calcium on it so I switched over to liquid calcium and carefully measured it out according to his weight of course. This is his preference.
He quit eating on his own about a year and a half ago. Before that he still took bugs but wouldn't touch his veggies for about 6months prior when his head tremors started. This has been going on for quite some time. I have been hand/syringe feeding him during that time.

Some things I've done...

In the beginning I upped his calcium intake with guidance from someone experienced just for a short time (2 maybe 3 weeks) and it seemed to have reduced his headshakes but then they came back full on so I lowered the dosage back down as I don't want to overdo it with the calcium. I think it was just coincidence his head tremors improved because they sometimes seem to just vanish for short periods of time before reappearing.

I've had him tested for adenovirus once during his worst symptoms and results came back negative.

I bought a UVB solarmeter to check his bulbs UVB outputs. He's never been with a bulb older than 6months even if it's an arcadia until I bought the UVB solarmeter to be sure it was still putting out well. I swap between ZooMed T5 10.0 HO fluorescent and Arcadia 14% T5 HO when the bulbs need replacement. His fluorescent UVB is on for 12hrs a day. He's also got a Megaray MVB bulb that turns on for 4 hours every day to mimic high noon sun/heat.

I created a dynamic lighting setup for him hoping that this enrichment would make his drive/apatite come back. He has 6500k LEDs on a ramp up timer to mimic dawn/dusk and create bright light similar to daylight.

When I took him to the vet he had labs done. The vet said that the headshakes could be due to some sort of neuro-degenerative disease or a small tumor somewhere. Aside from his intention tremors he looks good. The vet wasn't alarmed by anything on his labs.

I went on a 3 month long trip to Australia, leaving my boy with my mother to look after him for me. I setup a webcam in his enclosure for me to check on him everyday with his own skype account and everything haha. I'm very protective and meticulous over the care of my boy. I gave my mother very specific written instructions that covered everything and showed her the best techniques to care for him and was always a skype call away for her. To make it easier on my mother, I allowed her to only feed him 3-4x a week as it is tedious and time consuming and not always easy to do. When I came back from my trip I offered him some fresh greens and he went for them! I was so proud! I think this could be because he's hungrier since he was being fed less or because of the dynamic lighting setup or maybe both over time! He had his lighting setup for about 5 or so months before he started eating on his own again. Him eating on his own lasted for about 2 weeks even with his intention tremors making it difficult to take bites of food and now he's back to only accepting bugs on his own but not veggies. So I hand feed his veggies by pushing them into his mouth and letting him take bites that way. Sometimes I dip the veggie's in baby food to get a little extra vitamins/minerals in him from other sources. Or sometimes I dip it in spirulina powder.

He is fed silkworms/dubia/BSFL/Superworms. Collards/Mustards/Turnip/Endive/Arugula/Carrot/Squash.
A variety of babyfoods.

I let him soak in the summer sun in his outdoor enclosure whenever I can.

The last and most recent thing I've done was I began to supplement him with CBD oil. I found the lowest strength I could find and started out with 0.1ml dose for about 4 days with no results other than he seemed more active. I gave him a 3 day break after that. The following Monday I started with 0.1ml again before getting advice on the dosage. Once I got approval I increased the amount. The next day (Tuesday) I bumped it up to 0.2ml and the first day nothing really improved right away. But the second day his tremors were gone. I did a little stress test to see if I could trigger them and I noticed a very subtle amount almost missed it. I'm now on day 3 at 0.2ml for this week and I haven't seen his tremors at all! I think I will stop a couple days and see if they return and if they do, start with the 0.2ml dose again and see if they disappear. He won't touch his greens still but will eat bugs on his own.

Please no judgement for using CBD oil. This is something I've researched to my best ability, talked to others about and held out on for some time now and I just want Malachi to have an easy life, eat on his own, and not struggle to grab food due to his intention tremors. I am happy to answer questions and I appreciate any constructive feedback/advice! Thank you. :)
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby claudiusx » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:27 pm

It's such a coincidence as I was just on pubmd early this morning doing research into any clinical trials of CBD with reptiles. There are quite a bit of studies on dogs and cats, and of course a ton on humans, but reptiles are a harder study to find. I did find this article Cannabinoids and the kidney: effects in health and disease.
It's not reptile specific, but the basis of the study is in regards to cannabis receptors:
The two different types of receptors (CB1 and CB2) that are activated by the pharmacologically active ingredients of cannabis are found in numerous tissues, including the kidneys.

And if you do some research, you find it noted that reptiles do have these receptors in their kidneys, and likely other tissues too. I was originally looking into this as it seemed an interesting topic for discussion in regards to helping treat kidney issues we see in dragons. However the conclusion they come to is while it may help kidney function, it may also damage them.
It is plausible to hypothesize that the stimulation of CB1 and/or CB2 receptors and activation of the EC system in the kidneys may have a significant impact on renal function, which could include both deleterious and beneficial effects.


That being said, about every drug known to man has a side effect. Stress on the kidneys is a pretty mild one IMO if it seems to help with the tremors. CBD has been studied and tested to help with that in many cases (just not any in reptiles that I can find, but biological functions and pathways should be similar, as is eluded to in many reptile based studies you can find.)

Since you really are delving into unknown territory, and it seems you have a decent vet, it would be wise to get blood work done after a bit to check kidney function. The goal would be just as much of a dose as needed to keep symptoms at bay, while also keeping the kidneys in a healthy functioning state. If the dose you are using is working, I wouldn't consider bumping it up again until you get kidney function results. The best part of this, is you have a baseline of what the blood tests showed before you started with the CBD. So win win there.

It will be interesting to see and follow along with your results nevertheless.

-Brandon
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby claudiusx » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:30 pm

But I did want to ask what your UVI readings are, since you have the solarmeter.

-Brandon
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby CooperDragon » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:51 pm

Moved by moderator from ER to Advanced Healthcare.
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby MissCutiePatootie » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:23 pm

claudiusx wrote:But I did want to ask what your UVI readings are, since you have the solarmeter.

-Brandon


I have the 6.2 UVB Solarmeter, not the UVI unfortunately. I wanted to be able to read the UVB output for outdoors as well so I opted for this one.

At the center of my current ZooMed T5 10.0 HO fluorescent bulb it reads 190µW/cm². At the corners it reads 130µW/cm².

Thank you for posting that information on the kidney receptors and link it's very useful!

I am looking for the sweet spot on dosing since there's so little information out there for reptile use. No one really knows what to dose at for reptiles exactly it seems. If I can, I'd like to just supplement a couple times a week! Because I couldn't find much information specific to reptiles, I felt more comfortable giving him some for half the week on and half the week off. That should waive any kidney damage concerns I hope. I am a little nervous about doing it because so little information is out there for use in reptiles but if it ends up working long term I will be so glad to finally have some relief for him!

This is the CBD product I am using. https://www.cleanrun.com/product/pet_re ... /index.cfm
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby Drache613 » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:03 pm

Hello!

I am glad that it seems to work some for Malachi, bless him. I know he has been through
a lot. Being a specialized morph, they have been shown to have more genetic predispositions
for health issues, but, this isn't always the case. Since he is adeno negative, which in itself IS
amazing, there are other issues at hand then.
Humans have numerous receptors for this natural substance which is why it works so well for
humans. It just hasn't been tested on animals extensively or especially reptiles which are
usually at the bottom of the totem pole for any type of research studies.
You have done a phenomenal job with him & he has slowly improved.
I definitely agree with a baseline blood test to be sure it isn't adversely affecting his kidneys.
Have you decided how long you were going to keep him on the treatment yet, before giving a
break?

Tracie
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby MissCutiePatootie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:21 pm

Hey Tracie! Thank you for the credit but honestly, you deserve just as much credit for his progress! Without all your help and kindness it would have been much harder to give him the care he gets now. We appreciate you!! <3

I definitely want to make sure everything is doing more good than harm with him so I definitely will have more labs done in the future. How long should I wait before having labs done again now that I've been going for 2 weeks with the CBD oil?

Last week he was given mon-thurs @0.1ml no change.

I've given Malachi 0.2ml of CBD oil 4x this week now.
Monday @0.1ml (tremors still present)
Tuesday @0.2ml (tremors still present)
Wednesday @0.2ml (no tremors except during a little stress test but was very subtle)
Thursday @0.2ml (no tremors)
Friday @0.2ml (no tremors)
Saturday-none (no tremors)

I will log everything here I think for his dosing/schedule so you all can see. I have an old video of his tremors but for some reason my videos on my youtube account are gone. That or I'm just looking in the wrong place. I'll figure it out one way or another... I may just make new videos to show the difference in his symptoms so everyone can see too.
I'm going to wait for the tremors to come back before giving him 0.2ml again to see how often I will have to give him this dose. I'll also cut back more as soon as the tremors disappear next time to lower the frequency too if possible.

I'm curious to see how long he goes without symptoms now in comparison to his next treatment that will be shorter. If you guys have anymore suggestions please let me know! :)
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby claudiusx » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:13 pm

It's possible the smaller dose would have worked if it just needed to build up in his system. But that would be great if you'd log everything to keep us updated! Really hope it completely solves his tremor issues! :mrgreen:

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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby MissCutiePatootie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:58 pm

claudiusx wrote:It's possible the smaller dose would have worked if it just needed to build up in his system. But that would be great if you'd log everything to keep us updated! Really hope it completely solves his tremor issues! :mrgreen:

-Brandon


I did think about that a little when I started but I don't know how long the CBD stays in his system for with their metabolic rate being different than ours... :?:

He had a 3 day break from his first week of treatment. It's possible for there to be some build up left by the time of his second round of treatment. How long does it take to leave the body completely? :?:

On a side note, in my previous post I said it would be interesting to see how long it takes for his symptoms to return. I had him out for some exercise a little bit ago and I noticed a certain jerkiness in his head movement when he turns that reminded me of the tremors. It could just be me looking for it too much however. It's possible they will return in a day or two. We shall see!
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby claudiusx » Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:02 pm

I'm not sure either as far as how long it takes to leave their system. I'd imagine it is largely affected by their body temp and how long they keep it higher during the day. If there is some jerkiness coming back it would be a decent indicator that it has a pretty short half life in the body.

Maybe I'll try to find some studies on that later.

It will be pretty good proof if the tremors come back off dose, and go away when the regimen is started again. After the bloodwork you might not even need to have off days, depending on what the results show.

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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby MissCutiePatootie » Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:06 pm

claudiusx wrote:I'm not sure either as far as how long it takes to leave their system. I'd imagine it is largely affected by their body temp and how long they keep it higher during the day. If there is some jerkiness coming back it would be a decent indicator that it has a pretty short half life in the body.

Maybe I'll try to find some studies on that later.

It will be pretty good proof if the tremors come back off dose, and go away when the regimen is started again. After the bloodwork you might not even need to have off days, depending on what the results show.

-Brandon


I'm second guessing myself on the jerkiness when moving. But tomorrow I think we will be able to tell more if it does come back. I'll know what to look for and be able to manage him I suppose if it does come back tomorrow.
I really appreciate you looking into it too! I try my best to do research and appreciate any help I can get.

Also I found the link to the video I sent to Tracie about a year ago in our PM's. His head tremors appeared worse when he came out of his last brumation so the video isn't a very clear example of what they are now.

I think it was around September of 2017 that I first noticed his head tremors.
They went away on their own for quite some time until they reappeared in 2018 sometime between May-July and were worse.
By worse I mean, they started out by little shivers you could barely see and disappeared for long periods of time in 2017-18. Then in mid 2018 they came back and the shivers were more consistent.
They appeared as "intention tremors" where if he focused on something or wanted to move from point A to point B his head shivers happened. That's when I recorded him for Tracie to show them to her when they were at their worst in this video. https://youtu.be/gxQKXH11_UY?t=198
He went into brumation and in 2019 his tremors were more of a head wobble + shivers off and on. I also started noticing that when he walked he overcompensated at times with his steps like he thought he had to step over something or overreach with his back legs. This symptom came and gone and still does but not nearly as much since waking up from his last brumation.

He's always had his lights/heat and calcium/bvitamins with light meals throughout his brumation.
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby Drache613 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:07 am

Hello,

No, you did all of the work for him! :D
Hopefully his tremors will just gradually go away completely. They definitely have unique
metabolisms so it hopefully will stay in his system for a bit. It should give a longer lasting
effect though. I believe these compounds store in fat cells to an extent but will slough off
& flush out after awhile. Of course, brumation phases yield slower metabolisms so that will
affect the outcome too.
At any rate, it will be really interesting to see any bloodwork of before, during & after as you
are able to get that done without too much stress on him.
It will take some trial & error to figure out the best dose for him is.

Keep us posted on him!
Tracie
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby MissCutiePatootie » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:57 pm

I'm going to be busy soon with moving so I wanted to make a post before I forget to. Malachi hasn't been given any CBD oil for 4 days now. This is what it's looking like...

Day 1: No tremors however I did pick up on a slight staggering in his head movement almost as if he was about to show tremors but never did and was very faint to the eye.
Day 2: No tremors but staggering more visible in head movement.
Day 3: Noticed faint tremors; intermittent. Head movement was more jerky/staggering when excited.
Day 4: No tremors seen today.

I have him fasting the last two days to get him to eat on his own. Just ordered him some silkworms/superworms/BSFL this weekend, should be here tomorrow. He won't touch the dubia roach colonies I have. He's been pooping normal 3x the last week. Little flakes of shed have come off individual scales I noticed more recently. He's been in his outside enclosure 5x the last 9 days soaking up those natural rays and enjoying the summer heat. I'm going to wait until his intention tremors are back before starting another round of treatment with the CBD oil. I want to make a video of them at their worst and then do follow up videos of his progress.

For his next round of treatment, what do you guys think I should try? 0.1ml for a week or two until his tremors disappear? I only did it for 4 days until I gave him a 3 day break last time. Or should I start with the 0.2ml dose again and stop soon as his tremors are gone to see how long it takes for his intention tremors to return?

My thoughts are there will be some variable temperature differences from day to day since he gets to sunbathe for 5-6hrs a day on some days depending on the weather. I don't want to take that away from him for the sake of testing. It's so beneficial to him to get those rays while the weather is still nice. I live in Oregon and most of the year it's not warm enough or it's raining. So because I can't control it to a T it makes me want to just go with the 0.2ml dose again and skip over testing it at 0.1ml but then it may be unnecessary to do if 0.1ml over a set amount of days is better and practice caution. I'm thinking about his kidneys. Let me know what your thoughts are. Thank you!
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby claudiusx » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:07 pm

Thats a tough call really. It's really up to you.
Personally, I'd try the .1ml just to see if that would have worked if given long enough, and it would be at least 50% easier on the liver if it does have an affect. But, the goal here too is to help Malachi, and it won't be much of a help if the .1ml doesn't do the trick.

Sorry I'm back and fourth on this one LOL! At this point it's probably just gonna take some time to figure out what works. So, I fall back on the thought that i'd personally do this week at .1ml as opposed to the .2ml

That's great though that he has had no tremors today!

-Brandon
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Re: Beardie with Intention Tremors. CBD seems to work??

Postby claudiusx » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:17 am

Any updates for us? Did you start round 2 yet?
Hope hes been doing well :)

-Brandon
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