VERY Important Information Regarding Dubia Diet and Protein!

I just came upon this article: http://www.store.repashy.com/can-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html by Alan Repashy that suggests too much protein in roach diet can not only KILL adult Dubia but also transfer HIGH amounts of Uric acid to reptiles (which we all know is bad news bears for dragons) because roaches DO NOT excrete Uric acid!

I can tell you from my experience keeping and breeding Crested Geckos that Alan knows what he's doing and that all who breed/feed Dubia should DEFINITELY read this! I don't panic easily, but when you consider that roaches can metabolize LETTUCE such that they receive a significant amount of protein, dog food and most commercially available roach diets could be harmful to our dragons.

I know people have been loading roaches with high protein diets for years and haven't had any issues, but science is always evolving and we (as responsible dragon owners/breeders) should evolve with it.

Just thought I should share...try not to flame me to hard.

Update:

Here is another interesting article about roach nutrition and dietary selection: http://dubiaroachdepot.com/guidance/dubia-roaches-dietary-protein

Thanks for posting this....actually there have been more than a few threads about beardies developing gout so this may be something that needs to be taken note of.

Thanks for sharing, that's a good read.

You are quite welcome...glad to be of service. :mrgreen:

Thanks for sharing these articles. That second article is pretty interesting and has a few recourses that are new to me. I'll have to read it when I have some more time.

I totally agree with the idea that we need to be mindful of what we feed our feeders. Things like dog, cat and fish food are for dogs cats and fish. Roaches do perfectly well on fresh whole food and in turn are better for our animals. The idea of self selection and nutritional needs based on life stages is largely ignored but it's probably actually important. Bird have been shown to self select for calcium during breeding season. Even reptiles have been shown to self select food items for certain nutrients. My personal feeling is some dragons preference for insects and particularly fatty grubs is very similar (insects are a more efficient source if fat and calories than foraging for vegetation)

However, I think it's also important to take care when making strong statements with this sort of information. The hobby/culture of reptile keeping can be sort of knee jerk and sometimes strong statements travel farther and faster than the logic.

It's good information to have and good enough reason for modifying recommendations for feeds, but the statements aren't really facts. I may be mistaken, but the studies Allen Repashy refer to are on Blattella germanica - a different branch of the cockroach family tree. Blaptica dubia are pretty poorly studied so the conclusions are an educated guess based on similar species, but science has a pretty broad idea of "similar species". This is prominent in many areas of reptile keeping - quite a few conclusions/recommendations for reptiles are based on research in birds. I haven't seen evidence to indicate the rate of Uric Acid transfer from prey, and the dubia mortality from proteins is an anecdotal connection. While not all roaches excrete uric acid - they can mobilize it for use and deplete it that way.

Please, Don't take my comments the wrong way, I'm not contesting the importance of the information or the validity of the recommendations - I've used Allen's article a few times myself to encourage low protein diets for roaches and I look forward to reading the papers cited in the second article. I am just weary of some of the ways that information gets out and "facts" start forming that aren't really in the data.

DarkwingDork":1ldtwk66 said:

roaches can metabolize LETTUCE such that they receive a significant amount of protein

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This seems misleading. If you're implying roaches have some sort of ability to metabolize lettuce FAR more efficiently than all other animals, I would like to see your source. If you take out the water content from the equation (in other words, look at just dry matter), protein content in lettuce is "significant," 15-30% depending on the variety. Chew your lettuce well, people.

Repashy is the first person I've ever heard of that fed his roaches straight dog food, so for most people I don't think too much protein is an issue. But for those paying extra for high protein puppy food (or cat food), it appears they've been wasting their money.

Taterbug":3mmpgu33 said:

Things like dog, cat and fish food are for dogs cats and fish. Roaches do perfectly well on fresh whole food and in turn are better for our animals.

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Who or what doesn't do well on fresh whole food? Part of the reason for using dog food (for dogs and to supplement a roach's diet) is convenience and cost.

Taterbug":3mmpgu33 said:

The idea of self selection and nutritional needs based on life stages is largely ignored but it's probably actually important. Bird have been shown to self select for calcium during breeding season. Even reptiles have been shown to self select food items for certain nutrients. My personal feeling is some dragons preference for insects and particularly fatty grubs is very similar (insects are a more efficient source if fat and calories than foraging for vegetation)

Click to expand...

Good point.

@wes - agreed! I don't do anything other than wash my veggies, the roaches are remarkable at consuming every last bit of useful material. The problem is some I care sheets/invert vendors sort of imply the need for a "specially formulated roach chow" or mixes of grains, cereals, pet food and other things. It gives the impression that such is somehow best suited for them - when really it probably just promotes growth and reproduction. Most forum thread guides (including ones on this forum) and care sheets push the high protein diet - using things like catfood, dry milk, dog food, fish food, chicken mash etc. it is the more "common" knowledge of how to keep roaches.

I've seen very few studies on the nutritional impact of diet on the roach species we use as feeders, so we don't really know the effects. It's actually surprising how little is actually known about things regarded as "fact" in the reptile community. At least with a reputable commercial cat food I know there is some level of nutritional research to back it up (for use in cats) and I can't safely provide my cat with a whole food diet.

At the end of the day, I find it much more convenient and cheap to feed leftover produce and alfalfa pellets to my colony. I don't need to bother with water crystals, grinding up things, sourcing grains or infesting my basement with grain mites.

As to the metabolizing lettuce - different digestive systems are more or less efficient than others. Different proteins are metabolized differently. Though not a difference in metabolic/uptake ability Insects will avoid parts of plants containing natural deterrents (like oxalates) or consume other options rich in something they are after.

Very true. I remember one blow-hard claiming that his "roach chow" was specially formulated for roaches with vitamins added. He didn't answer how he knew the vitamin requirements of Blaptica dubia. It ended being that he was selling chicken feed.

There are lots of fruit and vegetable parts that people throw out (or compost) and weeds in the yard that roaches will readily eat. There really is no need for water crystals. Halloween is about a month away and they love the inside gunk surrounding the seeds. After the Halloween, they'll eat the "meat" of the pumpkin. I'll freeze most of it and they seem to prefer the glob of melted pumpkin more than the raw.

As for metabolizing lettuce, the OP seemed to imply that roaches have a special ability to get a significant amount of protein out of something that is 95% water. While the dry matter portion of lettuce has a significant amount of protein, is there any science that shows the roaches have the ability to metabolize more/less/the same amount of protein as any other animal? It wasn't in the articles she posted. Where did she get this information from?

The pumpkin tip will be useful, thanks! I just started keeping Dubia last week and have just been putting scraps of greens and veggies in with them (same as what I do for supers). They seem to be going to town on it. I obviously don't have enough time with it to say for sure but so far so good.

Never thought to freeze the pumpkin! Great idea. I'm surprised by how much "rind" they eat - many times it comes out like paper.

I don't think the articles mention anything but I've read somewhere that detritovores (like roaches) can be more efficient at utilizing foods otherwise poor in nutrition - it would take a bit of hunting to track down the source though. This would apply to more than just protien of course.